Plato, Haiti, Seoul discussed on Science Salon

Science Salon


A crystallized ancient in ancient Greeks thought the soul and the body were to separate the nominee that could be separated. The body can't live without the soul but the sole can live out the body and so it's a separate entity and Plato argued that the soul in fact immortal the body obviously dies but the sole necessarily lives on and Without that idea of your soul living on you obviously could not have an idea that your soul would go to heaven or hell and so it's imperative or the idea of having an hell the work that the soul is is its own entity and not not not we would and we. Today we would think most most people listening to your podcast but thanks that the soul you know doesn't exist separately but it's it's it's some some punch into the brain at some level but The Greeks didn't say it that way and the ancient Hebrews didn't see it that way either. They have different explanation but they didn't think Seoul could exist apart from the body so they they were we would call duelists the plate nest. The the the fall play were most. Greek thinkers in antiquity. That we know about by the time Plato or duels before Plato. We have earlier accounts of great views of going back to homer which homers our earliest Western literature and loves agree and in his view There there was not a have an hal or rewards and punishments in his view when a person dies Their ceases to exist they exist in some kind of shadowy form and he actually used the term for shadows and so the your shadow in some sense really exists but it has no power it has no strength and has no substance and has no ideas thoughts and you you exist like that forever down hades shadow and so the innovation with people connect with Plato. Is that no. There's actually the essence of you lives on after death. That super interesting. So in one theory the soul is real. But it's completely dependent on the physical body versus the soul. Floats off the body when physical body dies and it continues to exist somewhere else. Yeah and their to their kind of two different theories about your soul existing As a with the soul and body thing are are the one. Because I mean if you're talking about the great yes when you introduce the Hebrew slightly different conception of it. I don't know if you want me to get our yeah. Yeah let's do that. In Hebrew thanking the soul is the thing that energizes your body and brings it to life and so in the genesis creation story when God Creates Adam. He creates out amount of the. You're actually takes. Dirk makes it into a being but then he breathes into it and the breadth that goes into it is the Is is the thing that makes it a lie and so in some ways ancient Hebrew thought that your soul was kind of like your breath when you even today when we think the breath as far being alive. Obviously but when you stop when you stop breathing you doc but your breath doesn't go anywhere nowhere. It's not just you're not animated anymore. And that's what he thought about. The soul is that he attended. Want you you have the soul. And it's what made you alive when your body dies. The soul doesn't go anywhere it just it's gone now. This fate like breath the most like the nineteenth century notion of the lawn. Vitale you know the difference between a living body in a dead body seconds apart. Well the life force went out of it. What does that mean well? It's it's almost before we understood. Dna in neurons and how they work and all that and the twentieth century that does seem to make sense. It sounds something like that. Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah Probably right and then you know and and the kind of weird thing in the history of what I'm interested ear. They haven't been hell is that it's not the Old Testament view the ancient Jewish you. It's not that unit became the Christian view. It's the Greek view. Right became the basis for our understanding. I think this is the point of your book. That's GONNA shake a lot of modern Christians. They're thinking you know the ideas of the afterlife and immortality come from the Old Testament but as you point out. There's nothing in the Old Testament like that. There's nothing there's no idea that your soul goes to heaven or hell. I think that'll be surprising. But I think what's really going to get? People upset is when I showed that. In fact Jesus didn't believe in heaven. And how WHOA now? You're getting. Yeah I I WANNA spend spend a lot of time on that because as soon as the best chapter in your book. But but but in terms of ancient Hebrew this idea of Haiti's. This was not a place that you go to nonexistence. Yeah it's complicated because you're asking what the authors of the Old Testament bought is is like asking. What did ancient Jews thank and ask him what ancient Jews thought is kind of like asking? What modern jus think depends which Julia Time. What WANNA MODERN AMERICANS WOULD? What are you talking? And so there's a variety of thing even in the Old Testament but there's nowhere that indicates the soul would afterwards that go there reward coupon and there is a place talk about in the Old Testament that is of the Hebrew word. She'll she'll people maybe heard of that. And it's often thought to be a kind of kind of like an Israelite Haiti the place at home or described where where everybody kind of goes nobody has any power or strength. And there's nothing really to do and people kind of board for eternity and but everybody's together down there and I've always thought that I thought that's what it was referring to a talk years and years and years until I started doing the really serious for his book and I realized in fact she all is not a place that people go to in the Hebrew Bible when described it. Always likens it to the grave or to the pet and so I came to realize is just talking about the place. Your body gets deposited. Bonnie goes to she'll meaning he goes into the pit or it goes into the grave and so there's no there's no like after that In in a most of the Hebrew Bible and some of the Hebrew Bible explicitly denies that. There's any life after that. Yeah I was just looking at Alan. Siegel's book I. I read that for life after death. The history of the afterlife in the religions otherwise. Yeah I read that when I was researching earth it. That that it's just it's it's like asking. Where were you before you were born? You just weren't anywhere. Yeah you are and where you're debt anywhere you say place your body body venture would disappear too. Yeah yeah so this idea of the continuation of the soul. Dan As you show is fraught with all kinds of problems. How does a soul see without eyes or digest food or have emotions or care about anything without a brain? How did how did the ancient Hebrews Org Greeks or anybody early church fathers? You know kind of wrestle with that problem on the grants who thought that. There's a difference between body and soul had a different way of understanding that then a we do We have been heavily. A you know this better than I do. we've been heavily influenced by. Dick Kerr who in his meditations develop this idea of of that you get this the separate that you get this Immaterial soul and you get a material body and so that's what people think of today. Is that the soul is invisible thing that has not made up of any staff And so people who have that view do have trouble explaining how you can be a whipped in a hell or how you can be physically tortured and now if you don't have the physical body the Greeks actually didn't have that problem and this is not widely known actually in among scholars don't realize this but in ancient Greece the Numa the the spirit and the Suitca the soul the human existence. But they're not in material. There are different kind of material from our body. Our Body is the thick. Clunky stuff that it just kind of course grows the the soul the spirit are very refined? Stop they're more like. I guess what we might think of as the air or something. The air is stop there molecules in the air. But with the Mo- it's a much finer stuff and so You know you can send your hand through it but you you're GonNa go through your hand and say what you're hacking go through it. Because it's a finer stop so they understood that it was tough and since it was stuff when it lives on. It's still stuff and so they don't have trouble imagining how it can. You'll pay no. They don't of course you know they don't understand about nerve endings and things but No but since its material objects that is still human. It can experience physical Ben.

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