Donald Trump, Last Month, January discussed on All In with Chris Hayes


About legitimacy. Like what do you see happening here. I would start by saying if you saw this happening. In other countries as we do where you have an election and there is certified by all sorts of people. And it's clearly free and fair and then a group decides to try to overturn it. That is a grave threat to democracy. In the united states and barra allies the liberal democratic oral ways in. That is what we're seeing here and it's just much harder to recognize it at home by if this precedes in the twenty twenty four election when all neutral observers say there was a free and bear result. These measures would actually allow Let state legislatures republican. Legislators overturn the result. If it is not. They're like and they are doing everything they can to make sure we're not a democracy. We are an oligarchy aristocracy. Something where a not everyone gets to vote and a white majority is preserved that point about the international conspiracy is important because when when the story does arise in some countries that you don't follow closely and you're not an expert of and they say there's an election and it was certified within these people dispute it. I i always say like well. I don't actually know what the deal is here. I'm not following this and that kind of cloud of uncertainty when you're not in it right if as an outside observer you can be a little hard to adjudicate okay. Well who actually. Who's right here right. And we've seen that abroad and we've seen it in our own history right. I mean this is. This is precisely the thing that happened. In the jim crow south it's this attack on legitimacy through means both legal and extralegal. That was the way in which the jim crow state was constructed. Absolutely right chris we had a multiracial democracy. The united states and it was taken away. And that's what people don't realize and the pattern between the attack on voting rights at the end of reconstruction and the attack on voting rights. Today is so similar it's eerie. You had the enfranchisement of black voters followed by violence fraud and intimidation to keep them from the polls. Then you have the legal disenfranchised of black voters through literacy tests poll taxes etc etc. That's how reconstruction really ended in. That's how jim crow began n what's happening. Today is very similar. You had new groups turn out in record numbers in twenty twenty two flip states like dora blue. That was followed by an attempt. To overturn the election in insurrection. They're trying to enshrine the insurrection for quote unquote legal meets. That's what the entire twenty twenty twenty twenty twenty one. St legislative sessions are about. It's trying to figure out legal ways the disenfranchise voters because the legal means on a lesson. They took the end of reconstruction. That's how history is repeating itself today and this this question about this sort of interplay between laws and legitimacy seems important here in marin and something. I've been focused on. Which is there's there's a legal regime right. You can have a legal process in which all of the all of the laws are followed. Which is what we had in the last election right. You was certified and everyone sort of did their job in the ad but that doesn't the legitimacy problem is in some ways deeper. It's not necessarily a thing that can be corrected through law. The law serves as a kind of guardrail like the attack on the legitimacy is deeper attack in some ways. You're you're absolutely right in your point about the elections of rod or well taken where those of us who are outside say well you know where there's smoke there's fire inserts to know exactly why we send in international observers why there are all these election monitors who are certified by many different countries and many different parties. The international republican institute and the national democratic institute. Typically said delegations together here once you leave the realm of any kind of agreeing truth by where you can have a people believing that our president runs a pedophile. Ring you're in great danger. Because the nothing no amount of certification no amount of legal bay air normal process will suffice. And you have a group who are determined to put that cloud on the election and then simply to push through ways of overturning. What what the world. The rest of the country would see as a free and fair election emery. You made the point about the state legislatures which are key players here. Are you heard it in the interview. Right i mean that was always the thing that trump was banking on. Its where you have some of the most like radicalized members of of the of the republican party operating. And you're seeing this now as a cause that various republican state legislatures are taking up are of course and the thing is the states. have already become. The republican party's laboratory for subverting democracy. We already don't have functioning. Democracy at the state level. In places like wisconsin and michigan because elections are already predetermined through gerrymandering. Then you put voter suppression on top of that. And the overriding goal of the republican party. And all of these states has been to subvert the democratic process over and over and over again to build a wall. While upon wa- chris right because they already insulated themselves through gerrymandering and voter suppression. Now they are adding more voter suppression. And then they are adding on top of that being able to overturn. So at every step of the process they have undermined democracy greatest feedback loop where one anti-democratic facet than entrenches. Another anti-democratic facet of the system. Amre slaughtering ari berman. That was excellent. Thank you both for making some types of. I really do appreciate it. Thank you chris. We've seen many republicans marched through the gilded doors of mar-a-lago to kiss the ring of the exiled blogger. Eager kevin mccarthy. Was there just week after biden's inauguration. Here's ted cruz. Last month and join a casual hang with his best bud. And there's this guy who you don't know but according to reporting for my next guest was involved with so-called patriot caravans on january. Sixth who he is latest on the insurrectionists next as.

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