Jesus, Luke, Peter Endure discussed on Christian Podcast Community

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You mean like love your neighbor as yourself in the answer is yet but the principle underlying the law is still applicable today. Even if you know if the principle of self defense ones home isn't overturned the new covenant and we have good reason to think it's not there's passages. Does that speak to something similar. We don't take the prerogative of God and just say well that doesn't apply anymore. Yeah I I would certainly and I mentioned my kind of Hopefully snide comment that. Only because I think a lot people forget like I get into discussions with people. Say Oh we're supposed to love God love for neighbor and and not not not worry about this desk. The New Testament is like well. He's quoting from Leviticus. Nineteen and Deuteronomy Deuteronomy has love. God with all your heart mind soul and strength and Leviticus says. Take your neighbor as yourself. So Jesus drawing from. He's explicitly drawing from the Old Testament Law and bringing it today right and and he's expecting a fuller understanding of the law kind of been there all along You know don't hate because it leads to murder. But the prohibition for murder had pate baked baked into it even back then but it was just not articulated that is true so all right likewise another passage Judges Fifteen Samson kills a thousand thousand Philistines guns but he uses a donkey's Jawbone. Right in self defense so at this point just self defense is legit right and in in this case we do have we do have a weapon that Samson used so we'll come to some other passages there too but yes that's t- that's true. We didn't have a gun. We'll come back to that point. In Matthew Twenty four Jesus speaks favorably of a man who stays home to defend his house against burglar in Luke. Eleven verse twenty. One when a strongman fully armed guards his own court. His goods are at peace. So these I take to be some passages that speak directly at least the idea of self defense and even beyond scripture. The same has been held. True in the heritage of American thought will come back to the second amendment. But you know John Locke among others called the right to self-defence the most fundamental of all rights because it ties back to the right of integrity over one's own body. You no you have a right not to be unlawfully harmed not to be raped not to be murdered. You have a right to life. You can't exercise your right to life if it's unlawfully taken from you. So there's there's a handful of of streams of thought on this Now in addition to self defense there's also a number of passages that speak to the rights of saints to bear arms so in Nehemiah four verse thirteen and following Nehemiah arms people to defend their families and their home. Home is that when he's trying to build the wall yes exactly stationed sword in one hand and the and the building in the other exactly. Yes bricks one hand sword in the other in in Luke. Twenty two hoover's thirty-six at. I WanNa Park on this verse just for a couple minutes. As to be important. One year Jesus exhorts his followers to buy swords he said to them but but now let the one who has a money bag take it and likewise a knapsack and let the one who has no sword sell his cloak and buy one now with this verse in particular particularly. There's pushback on using this text to defend Christians bearing arms and the pushback is that Jesus was speaking of sorts here. Metaphorically and many god-fearing Bible loving commentators hold that view so Matthew Henry said of this verse quote Jesus knew these would be perilous is times so the disciples would need the sword of the spirit so also John Calvin quote. It's shameful that the disciples after just having been told about bearing bearing the cross. Now imagine they must fight with swords of iron so on this view when Jesus says it is enough in verse Thirty Eight. He's taken taken to mean something like enough of this talk about swords right he's dismissing the very notion of bringing swords now all right that's that's one view and so you can. There's a lot of respectable commentators. Hold that view. I find that view hard to square with the rest of US thirty six because Jesus says sell your cloak and buy a sword well first of all does one by the sort of the spirit no because I think magician. Try to do that later. On and got reviewed for that exactly and another issue the disciple say in Verse Thirty Eight. Look Lord here to swords sue presumably. The swords didn't just appear to nowhere right there. There were handy when that repeaters like the most apparent reading of the text is that they've been traveling with these two swords allred and Jesus wasn't surprised that they actually produced two swords he didn't rebuke them. Or you know like a gas. Oh my how is it possible. You guys have two words you know exactly exactly and look even more to the point of Jesus must have been speaking metaphorically in Luke twenty to thirty six because not long after this talk about swords. Peter draws a sword against Marcus. And and that's when Jesus famously said those who take the sword die by the Sword Matthew Twenty six fifty two and now now that saying those who take this is a proverb proverb it's it's not a formulaic guarantee right. It's a it's a general truth now. John Piper explains it this way he says quote the mindset that plans to save its life by killing is not inviting the protection of God but the violence of man and quote like. That's Dr The papers explanation of Matthew. Twenty six fifty two And I really want I. I love Dr Pepper and I. He's sports such a good exposure of God's Word I really want to agree with had inter probation but I would wanNA adjusted just a little bit because Peter wasn't trying to defend Jesus's this is life like in a vacuum right. He he was getting in the way of Jesus's purpose and his purpose was to come to the world and die for the forgiveness of sins. So like I know. It's a little presumptuous but I I think Interpreting Matthew Twenty six fifty two might be something closer to this if we're going to reframe Dr Peppers interpretation the mindset that plans to to spread the Gospel to defend the name of Christ by killing is not inviting the protection of God but the violence of man because remember Jesus. He's a pilot. My Kingdom is not of this world. If it were my servants would be fighting that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. And that's what I think. Peter gets wrong when he strikes malkhas. He's he's still has an earthly Messiah in mind. Peter was jumping the gun or the sword no pun intended and and the key here is. Let's let's not make the same mistake. Peter made in attacking Mockus none of anything. I've said means Christ's kingdom is spread by carrying the sword anymore than it's spread by carrying money bags and knapsacks also found in Luke twenty to thirty six. We're like we're not to be this militia of Preachers Bible in one hand revolver in the other as interesting picture. And and another thing you notice this. Notice the restraint in armament from Jesus. You know the disciples said Lord here to swords. Jesus doesn't say well sheesh boys you know load up by three more get the extra long ones with blades. Coming out. The sides he said two is enough. That's plenty they didn't need more. There's no fetish ing of of weapons or the violence they get. It's it's sober it's tempered okay. All right well I mean that's fair enough so far but you have to we. We do have to spend some time in the passage. That's GONNA come up in any of these. Conversations is the passage regarding turning the other cheek which occurs you know at least twice in the gospels. So you want to you. Want to kind of dive into that passage and address that for a little bit. Yeah it's it's important one. I mean you're you're exactly right right turn. The other cheek is often used in in a way to to discuss Non Retaliation of all kinds including Self-defense with firearms and and the Verse Looms Large. And it's true. I think that the general thrust of the New Testament is seems to be the you know not returning evil for evil but overcome evil with good paraphrase Paul in Romans twelve were pushed towards being wronged over being violent and so the verse about turning the other cheek is found in the Senate on the Mountain Matthew. Five thirty eight. He says you've heard it said an eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth but I say to you do not resist the one who is evil but if anyone slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other. Also you had the LEX Talionis the law retaliations. It's an I for an eye. A tooth for tooth and the goal of the LEX Talionis was to of course to to limit retaliation so the retaliation must be commensurate with the offense. So if someone stole your chickens you wouldn't go murder their family. The same principle applies in Christian. Just war theory of someone bombs building. You don't go nuke their entire nation nation to oblivion but in practice you see it became about vengeance over personal offense and and that's evident from the situation Jesus sites he says just if anyone slaps you on the right cheek turn to him the other also and most commentators agree. I mean. You can't say that very often you know like most commentators agree hardly agree about anything but most agree. What's going on here is a backhanded slap? And most people. Then as now were right handed so just imagine if you're facing somewhat and slapping them on the right cheek you're using the back of your hand so what's at issue here is is personal insult. Yeah and it seems like also the context. I mean a lot of times. Jesus would quote from the Old Testament. He's quoting here. I for nine to three tooth. Which is legitimate old testament passage regarding the law and he's applying it two now and he's kind of revealing abuse that's been taking place? Amongst the people particularly the Pharisees and the Jewish leaders. And that is that they would be quoting noting that old testament passage to justify personal vengeance against insults. Rice so But that's not what the original intent tint of that Old Testament passage was it was meant to speak to the justice system of the nation of Israel. And he does that he does that in other places as well Looking at other passages but I think that's the primary issue. Yeah that's right that's right now. Now now what makes this so compelling towards pacifism. Isn't just this verse right. But the argument goes the verse. This versus nestled into entire framework of New Testament passages. That seemed to encourage being wronged over being violent for Christ's sake so I mentioned some verses earlier from first Peter Endure sorrows when suffering unjustly to nineteen nine do not repay evil for evil three nine but others as well you know. Do not be surprised at the fiery trial when it comes upon you test you as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice insofar as you share in Christ's sufferings for speed or four twelve or thirteen so so like also Jesus as life-threatening dangerous situations are opportunities to bear witness Luke. Twenty anyone thirteen in the book of acts reports Saul Executing Christians and there's no report that the Christian Saul was executing tried to defend themselves. They were like lambs. Led led to slaughter for Christ's sake and we sing in Luther Sims. You know let goods and kindred go this mortal life also because God is our mighty fortress. We don't fear those who can kill the body so so that can be a compelling case The problem is this. It's the pacifist roots. Here we are taking one stream of Biblical thought and absolute sizing it over other streams of Biblical thought so just think of all of the biblical Biblical passages where we're scripture specifically enjoins various spheres not to turn the other cheek right so for one and the state doesn't turn the other cheek. You Know Paul says if you do wrong be afraid for the one. In Authority does not bear the vein for he is the Servant of God and a vendor who carries out God's odds wrath on the wrongdoer. Romans thirteen four. We'll come back to Romans. Thirteen business doesn't turn the other cheek. Paul says and to Thesselonians three ten if anything if anyone is not willing to work let let him not like. That's not mercy. That's not oh you relate to the job for the fifth time this week no big deal. Here's a paycheck. Like no like if you want work. You won't eat that's justice you can't can't run a business without the family doesn't turn the other cheek so inefficient six verse. Four fathers bring up your children in the discipline of the Lord..

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