Michael Goldfarb, Brian, Two Percent discussed on Monocle 24: Midori House

Automatic TRANSCRIPT

Now so welcome to madari house my guests today are michael goldfarb author and broadcaster and brian class fellow in comparative politics at the department of government at the london school of economics welcome both and we will start by anticipating the degree to which every non american member of nato is not looking forward to next week's summit of the organization in brussels us president donald trump never a fan of this or indeed any alliance has been scaling up both his rhetoric and demands doubtless encouraged by new national security adviser john bolton whose preferred model of international cooperation is one in which everyone else does what the united states tells them president trump has said before and is saying again that nato's of twenty eight members of feckless freeloading wilshire's or words to that effect brian first of all do we think he has yet entirely grasped how nato works no he keeps on talking about how they don't pay into nato adequate sums now i actually agree with trump on one thing about this which is that i think that people who have countries that have made a commitment of two percent defense spending should spend two percent on defense this is two percent of the gdp exactly that being said the way he's going about it is extremely stupid and counterproductive not only does it make it more difficult for governments in the european union and other parts of nato to actually hit those targets because trump is so toxic in those domestic constituencies but also the way that he talks about nato members and also the fact that he's imposing tariffs on them means that there is actually a major rift for me at the core of nato which is vladimir putin's long term goal is to drive a wedge between the transatlantic alliance and to splinter the united states from its european allies which basically has been impossible up until trump and now is becoming much more likely heading into this medium michael if it wasn't donald trump making this point would it be more apparent that there was a point here is there an argument which holds that since nineteen forty nine the rest of the western world has been kind of putting its feet up while the united states underwrites everyone else's national defense yet but i mean it's not been a gift has it i mean there's a quid pro quo across a wide range of issues that have nothing to do with national security in defense and i mean individual nations security not american national security america after the war was in the position to reorganize the economic institutions that run that that oversee global trade continues up until donald trump to do that is a wide range of quids and pro quos and i mean i was thinking about this just yesterday and it was not even knowing that we'd be talking about it today's that can you imagine a world in which the american nuclear umbrella wasn't over europe and yes britain has a nuclear deterrent so does france but the real umbrella the big shade comes from america during the cold war can you imagine a half a dozen wealthy european nations each trying to get its own nuclear weapon i mean the whole nonproliferation world exists because america has been able to put this nuclear umbrella around western europe so i think that it's a bit naive which isn't to say that democratic presidents as well as republican presidents have asked germany which doesn't and other countries which don't to perhaps you know pony up their fair share and more importantly in that brief fifteen year window when the american the pucks counter was really at its height up to the collapse of the soviet union did they provide a lot of troops when we were trying to bring separate the warring parties in bosnia not really do do you know so it's a very complicated picture and without doubt in need of reform you know trump isn't about that he's not capable of understanding what reform is he's about babies bathwater and getting a lot of headlines in conjuring the spectacle there of a world without nato you have thank you for this inadvertently trailed this weekend's coming dishes of the foreign desk which considers exactly that prospect that's live midday.

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