John Carlin, Muller, Donna discussed on Stay Tuned with Preet
John carlin. Great to have you on the show. Great beyond. So we go back aways, we've been friends for we should stay on the record that we are at least, I consider you to be your friend. You consider me to be your friend. It's nice to be talking to you on the phone in. There's not some crisis in the background. Yes. You know, it's kind of mellow now. But you have had a lot of jobs. We're going to get to various aspects of those jobs, and how they relate to this book you've written which is called dawn of the code war. I see what you did there. That's a play. That's a play on it. If it was very clever. Did you come up with it the? Yeah, we were trying to we do in and out. I'm used as saying we in all contexts. So writing books, but a little different in trying to use the word I on occasion in ignore the training that Muller gave me they went. There is no I in team taught his team. That's how I think the phrase goes. So it's called dawn of the code war. The subtitle is America's battle against Russia, China and the rising global cyberthreat so congratulations on the book. It's it's more pages than the book. I just wrote. So congratulations on that. Also, you didn't get paid by the word, did, you know, a lot of ground to cover though. And has you know, having seen many of these firsthand there's urban credible stories. One thing I've realised particularly being out of government and talking to people in the private sector is how few people know about cases that they think are science fiction in things that nation states are terrorists might do that have already happened. So let's talk about some of these things and maybe go back to the premise of your the title of the book kidding aside. Donna the code war. I'm guessing from having looked at the book is a play on. In the Cold War. How were those things similar? We're not in an armed conflict traditional armed conflict or even one recognized under international law, but we are experienced low intensity.