Mark Driscoll, Marcel, Driscoll discussed on The Happy Hour with Jamie Ivey


Seattle church was planted in nineteen ninety-six and existed for eighteen years and there was this sort of meteoric rise by two thousand seven mark. Driscoll was headlining big national conferences. At the height of the church had fifteen locations in or states more than you know somewhere between thirteen thousand and fifteen thousand people depending on who was counting and how they were counting his church. Numbers but yeah. There were a number of controversies throughout the years or a variety of reasons and all that started to come to ahead two thousand twelve two thousand thirteen resulting in pastor mark driscoll being put on leave and twenty fourteen and during that leave of absence. He resigned as sort of discipline must being prepared for him. So and then the most remarkable i think part of the story is a pastor resigns and then nine weeks later the church closed its doors so it's just an extraordinary collapse and in many ways the reason we're telling the story is i think there are elements of this story that are reflective of much bigger issues in north american evangelical. Okay we're gonna go there. That is so true so many things. Like i told you i ready. I wasn't familiar with mark driscoll and marcel very much before even your podcasts. But i could not believe how quickly the church closed doors after that. I mean i was just like. Oh my gracious so in the very first episode which is called. Who killed marcel. And you set the stage at the very end. You say this and i think i want to talk to you about this. She said why are we regularly. Platforming people whose charisma outpaces their character and then they leave devastation in their wake. And you said something attracts us we buy in and then we watched the collapse like spectators of demolition derby. You ask the question at the end. You said who kills mars hill and you said we all did and i remember that was my first episodes of lists through the end of your first episode and i thought this is going to be good because this is a bigger story than mark driscoll and so i think i wanna talk to you about that. What made you dive in on this story to talk about this because unfortunately i think you could've picked several you know. People whose charisma has outpaced correct character and then they fallen so why the story. I think it's a particularly interesting story for a few reasons. One mark was such a character his moment right. And that's true of a lot of people in a lot of different ways. But you look at sort of american culture in the two thousand and mark has just sort of this outsized version of all of it the hyper masculinity and the sort of genetics. Ethos and there's all kinds of reasons why i think he. In particular he stood out. Some of it was personal to my church was a part of ax twenty nine. I'm two thousand three two thousand and ten and during those years because of music ministry and various things we were part of a whole lot of acts twenty nine events and got to know a lot of marcell guys so some of the people on the podcast. Her friends of mine. And i met mark handful of times during those years as well. He was always super kind to me so you know. I had a familiarity with the story. Personally that made it particularly interesting and yeah and then again like the collapse is just such a unique unique thing. And i think one of the reasons why it's particularly interesting story to tell. Is that our tendency in looking at a story. Like this is to flatten it into two one. Say and you'll see this on social media search for the podcast on social and you'll see people saying all the time asking who killed marcel. We know who did it marked it and you know that's not an accurate answer because the reality situations are complex like mark doesn't become a national and global celebrity without a whole lot of support without a whole lot of platforming and without a whole lot of people who see the flaws and weigh them in the balance and say i'm going to platform anyway. I'm going to stick with him. I'm gonna give anywhere. i'm going to serve anyway. And so there are all kinds of sort of layers of contribution to this. I think are you need to be examined as as much as anything else. Yeah you know. I thought about this a lot people. I've heard say you know every person who works at church should she listen to this podcast and while i don't disagree with that at all i think that's a very valid thing. What you just said also reminds me that every single person who buys a book of somebody who subscribes to your podcast who has a pastor who does ministry also outside their local church. I think it's important for us. As followers of jesus in the culture that we live in north america. Like this matters to us as well. Because you know who killed marciel you said we all did like your said. He didn't do this alone. So where do you when people say. Oh all church staff. She'll listen to this. Like how do you feel about that kind of talk about that. Well you know you mentioned a to like this tendency. We have to spectate. Right like militia derby analogy. I make like it's a part of american culture that we love heroes and we love to watch them burn. Gosh yes and it's much a part of the process. And i think that's where our motivations often go unexamined and all of that and so that's where you know the podcast goes on. We press in more and more and more into the role that we play as as those spectators on both ends of that spectrum as we're weighing the costs to nazar weighing the problems. And so you know when a pastor does something that's problematic that says something stupid or does something hateful which happens all the time. It happens a lot in mark's story. Where where do we draw the here. I can go no further kind of line. And then i think the flip side of it is like i do think the critics deserve a lot of credit and we give them credit on the podcast but what role the critics plays well in calcified and hardening the alliance to of marker the critics of the show critics of mark got it. So if i'm like if i'm sort of mark adjacent and there's all kinds of stuff that he's doing that bothers me. I'm having problematically. And all that. But i'm also getting flamed from the outside from people who are sort of his ideological enemies. That in many ways is like well the enemy there my enemy too. I'm going to buy my guy right those. Those are complicated dynamics that i don't know you know. I don't even necessarily know what to do with them except to say a part of the problem that because we have this polarizing thing we have this polarizing dynamics in our culture. We haven't found a way to do constructive critique that can bring people together around this stuff so the polarizing negatively i think is not the problem. I don't at all wanna make it sound like i'm sort of lumping. The lumping the blame on them at all. But it is a contributor. It is a part of the equation. We have to figure out like. Is there a better way to do that. Is there a better way to do that. Kind of critique and engagement and where we can be more receptive to another you know speaking of critique one thing that i have really appreciated about your podcast that you guys have been making is while there is critique for sure of what happened and even mark it feels like you're being really cautious and also very kind in the way that you are critiquing. Do i wanna say this. It doesn't feel like it's like a bash mark driscoll episode that makes sense. You're taking a wider. look at it. Have you had moments where you've had to pull back and be like. I don't know that we should say that. I don't know that we should put that in there. What does that been like for you in the editing and interviewing process. There's definitely places. We don't wanna go right like i think about not when ago..

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