What we think of is a surname we think of it as just a worldwide convention that the first name is the given name and the second name is the surname. But as you've mentioned the family name but as you've mentioned it's different in hungary and east asia There are all over. You know in russians have patronymics where your last name is just middle name that means like son of and then your father's name in iceland. That is the surname fig. This is daughter in spanish. Speaking culture people have two different last names gabrielle garcia marquez and one is your father surname and one is your mother's oh and which comes. I think it's father than mother. Oh interesting and father gets retained. Let's not kid ourselves still much. She still patriarchal culture. So gabriel garcia marquez's children. Were there any would have the last name garcia not marquess keep garcia and then their mother's name. Oh how cool. If i understand correctly i mean. The reason i'm named john roderick is because the welsh. The welsh were son of john son of roderick roderick son of john and i think in my family pre english administration they just traded five or six different names. And this was the problem because even in small town in wales. You've got roderick son of john who was son of roderick. Who is son of john. How do you tell the who tell them. All apart. i think when the the the british census came in. And i i always picture a guy sitting at a desk and all these coal miners lined up. And they're walking one know. Walk up to the ten. What's your name roderick son of john. All right you're john. Roderick autry rodrick john and just write it down in a book and then it it enters into history in the domesday book. I must be true. You can't follow my family history. Past that moment there is no following the genealogy in wales you just get to that first day and you can read and writes how and ruined ruined and you know you can see through the mist to roderick son of john but the first person to enter into the world is is john son of roderick yet the lack of opportunity for confusion just the fact that you know. Fewer people is probably what kept middle names from becoming common in medieval europe. One guy named jeffrey cedric. You're good albert. There can't be more than one calvert And so it was just cities or towns that necessitated this in italy in thirteenth century italy. There started to grow a fashion for giving children to given names at birth and it was actually for religious reasons rather than reasons of convenience. These people wanted to give the child the name of a saint to show their religious devotion also presumably to protect the child to bring the child the favors of saint ignatius or whoever but there's also the long-standing tradition and maybe deep-seated human need to pass along something of your heritage. So you wanna give the child a family name and if you want to give the child family name antecedents name. The obvious solution is well. Why not one of each. And that's what became popular then and Name in the middle. Yeah i think usually the family name first and the saints name in the middle and even though they were religious they never you know. These were not middle initials although you'd think they would have been following the examples of jesus h christ. What's h holy. The there's an object of the for hallmark because god cared enough to send the very best offer. That's lovely but these were not initials yet but as you pointed out. There's a certain kind of aristocratic or aristocratic air to a three person. Three named person. Yeah or maybe in the case of your daughter a four or five days person yeah The person who wants to add the the suffix like the third like your friend richard bullet griffin or whatever his name was you or me this is why my son is not the fourth because he's not named kenneth. I'm not i'm not against name kenneth. It's fine. I don't know if i would. It's not my top ten. Yeah it's a little bit aged. Well it's the is a child's name the problem well. It's like a british a british child's kenneth. I'm not an engineer for the bbc. Like i'm not doing sound levels for the kinks right now. My name kenneth. How many levels name. It doesn't have a serb before it. You shouldn't be named kevin. But it's extremely posh. I mean the poshness for instance. The poshness of brian eno form. He's already entered into the omnibus as the as the developer of oblique strategies. Brian enos full name is brian. Peter george saint john the teast de saal ino pretty posh you judge the poshness in the length of the knee and the number of times that you have like a french french conjunctions or the number of times that the french articles in the name la or hyphen popping up in the middle of the name very very very poor hyphen is what shows like. In actual terms of income that comma would show. The number of comments would show how much money you have right but but in terms of names. It's definitely the hyphen. The hyphen is the poshest. Punctuation mark. the piano player of keen. Tim rice hyphen. Oxley has a very posh name. Also tim rice oxley the because he couldn't go by tim rice or tim. Oxley both also pretty posh the but that's a recent development middle names were not or a profusion of millions. We're not a hallmark of aristocrats in the uk. In the year eighteen hundred the turn of the nineteenth century Only ten percent of british subjects had a middleman emmy middle name at all let alone seven it did not spread there at all like you know. It started in italy by time in the nineteenth century. Almost half of french people had a middle name. Typical and it was largely men. You know this was true. Ancient rome as well. You know women would only have to name. Slaves only have one. It was a marker of state so in these patriarchal societies it was largely male though not entirely And it was not until the early nineteenth century. The custom spread to britain and And i think like most new additions. It started in the upper classes. There was a a fad for example of giving.