"Let's say you have a product and you have one hundred thousand dollars. Despite that on branding do you spend on marketing the continue feature podcast. I'm your host Christo. What is more important branding or marketing. What's the difference between the two which efforts should come I in this episode. I sit down with Melinda Lucy a brand strategist and the founder of marks and maker. We're also joined by Fabian Gear Halter was also branch outages and and is the founder of Fenian in this episode of the future we discuss if video posted by marketing consultant. Donald Miller speaks about his controversial opinion a pal. You need to be making fifty million dollars before you think about branding your company. Melinda Fabian and I sat down and have a thoughtful discussion about how we view branding mm-hmm marketing which is more important says it back listen to find out where we stand on the issue and how we view the relationship between branding in marketing so guys when Melinda calls answer in here we are millions like I think it's time I'm for another meeting but the switch today is that she's brought in another person that you are familiar with two if you're familiar with the channel none other than Fabian Garrelt are here and I think I think we're GonNa be talking about something that started to get under the skin of a lot of creative people. Donald Miller put out this video about the importance of marketing over branding he he gave branding short shrift for sure in this video branding though is a luxury. I think you need to be making about five hundred million dollars or even start thinking a whole lot about brand new and get your colors right in your logo and that sort of stuff but branding people have to be familiar with your brand in order to be trained to feel a certain way about your brand until then you need to do marketing as marketing is really where you make your money. Marketing is when you tell somebody to buy your product and you explain why they should buy a product mostly because I think he's a marketing Guy Guy. Of course he's going to talk about marketing so I think that sets the stage for the conversation. Let's see where this goes so Melinda. What are we talking about today about the difference between between branding and marketing okay so you have a perspective on this not yet it to bring news one little canary the cat the Cheshire cat here okay. I'm sure I have an opinion on it that I am unable to yet articulate but I would like to hear from both of you and your perspectives because as a brand identity designer turned bram strategist. There's a lot of overlap in marketing in from from Hearing Mountain Donald Miller video about. We shouldn't even worry about it until the company was that what did he say. Fifty million changed his mind throughout the video but fifty million yeah fifty million yeah. You shouldn't even worry about branding unless you're a fifty million dollar. Come out okay he started out with five hundred and they know it change five hundred a million and then it went down then he corrected himself to fifty okay and you work with a lot of startups to yes. I'm working on at that point with companies of all sizes and Milinda sent me the video and my head exploded and I'm like wait a minute. Don Miller is a good guy. He's talking about story branding. That's his friend right yeah. That's that's a name literally the name of his book Iran Bright and I read it you know I I liked it quite a bit and then I see this video and CD statement and as a Yemeni. I'm ready to talk about that. Okay well. I'm going to ask you because I watched it and I think there was a lot of fire and fury before watched a video so I'm like chill. Just watching objectively tried to remain neutral watches thing and see what's getting people prickly. Gli about it so you said your your head exploded so one of the things that he said that really made you think I don't agree with this point of view so I think that we did he position. It was one of if those quick videos I I think he the way he framed that was a little bit misleading and that's what gets everyone fired up including myself but rightfully so right because you shouldn't frame mm something that way. I'm in my eyes right the way that he talked about. It needs to be fifty million company. dollar company before you even start branding. It makes absolutely no sense to me. This is very much the cart before the horse right because you is very like antiquated analogy here but you you cannot you cannot talk about something. You cannot market if you haven't read it yet if you don't know what you're talking about right and in the video heels a talked about Simon Sinek famous wine. He says there was no need to ask why you just need to send emails at that point. You just email l. e. mail email and don't ask the question why behind the company and to me that is completely against my fundamental ideas right like you. I have to create a platform. You have have to create a brand platform to really derive why to company exists. You have to create obviously the company name. It's basic branding pieces that need to be in place the the reason why he said it is because he talked about this fifty million dollar company that said we need to do branding and he's like no. You don't so what doesn't work in there's video is that of course the company already had to spend a lot of money. Branding otherwise would have never gotten to fifty million dollars. Okay anything else doc for now. Okay being so accommodating okay. I think let's I understand the structure of these kinds of videos because I make these kinds of videos to their designed to push buttons and to incite true emotions because nobody cares if he's like. I love branding marketing the soccer ball marketing today nobody from the design side. Nobody on the brand space would would even care. Nobody would share does videos like what do you think so he's doing. I think what many people that are really smart. What about positioning says I'm for this and right now. I'm not for that so gets all the people that are yes. We're marketers and I also want us to kind of be aware of our own bias or bias sees right or by says. Are you saying that word. which is your branding guy? So of course you think branding is really important. I think I didn't fully we realized this before but he's really a marketing guys teaching people how to market their products and services so he's a marketing guy and I think this is our own kind of we want to shape reality reality the way we see it so I'm just trying to look at it like as a as as robotically as I can what is being said and what is more important. Whatever so let's get get into that okay. Let's say you have a product and you have one hundred thousand dollars. D spend that on branding or do you spend on marketing. I think you have to divide it in a very smart way. I mean you should in his thirty. Seventy rule is is not a bad rule rule right. I mean out of that budget. You should most probably take thirty percent of so branding because you have to establish thing right. You have to create the word before you you spread the Gospel Right and so marketing advertising. It's basically putting the word out there. You need to do a lot of that right but I need to define what the business for so I think it does make sense that you split less branding and more for marketing because if people don't hear about it they're not going to buy your stuff if they don't buy your stuff out of business right yeah I think I can also imagine why put out this video because he consults for firms probably fifty million and up and we're going to spend all the money in branding business so after hearing that for a while a piece like this comes up. That's why I like some people Chris. You're really salty. It's like we'll I've heard this question and and people beating their head against the wall so many times an eventual I come to the conclusion that this is what you guys need to hear and let's cut out the BS. Let's get started because you're here because you don't have enough runway. There's not enough revenue talk about you're GONNA be out of business in six months. We got to fix that and stop spending money on branding okay so let's take a step back for people who are like branding marketing. These are like terms. I use all the time interchangeably. Let's start with the definitional branding. Okay the way that you see it. What is branding. You know. I have different ways but I'll just you know off the cuff now. What is branding branding really is that it establishes rushes the why behind the brand establishes look and feel it establishes a positioning in differentiator in the marketplace and and all of that combined is beginning of branding and so I think it gets complicated right because in one of your posts recently Chris about branding being something that gets people to come back marketing something to get people to go to in the first place that too I think is a fine line right because without the brand being created created you know you can't markets like branding marketing branding marketing it kind of goes and it goes into this flow yeah so branding on the one hand is establishing gnashing that emotional connection and then the other hand this to keep it up right then go back to values to make sure that we keep evolving our brands but marketing is obviously key to getting the message out right so when I hear this it's like okay. I'm I'M A graphic designer. I've been calling my logo branding or you're saying sounds a little bit different than what I've been doing so I think it's healthy for us to have this conversation and and do like a public service announcement that if you make a logo well if you make a mark your identity designer your logo maker a letter form person you're not a branding person yet is one facet but it's just one very small facet actually right so when you say it's the why behind the company establishing the look and feel differentiating through positioning what look like what are what are the things you make when you help. Somebody brand their company the product or service so in the beginning. It's a brand platform as the industry calls also dried so it's really identifying how it's kind of like a business plan but the brands plan right. What do we stand for. Why do we exist. How how do we differentiate. How do we need to position company to stand out. What is the big why I call it too because statement right you know this is why we exist. You know what it connects with customers and understanding the customers before you even launch understanding. Who will these people be what channel so dion right? How can we connect with them read to comment on social media and start becoming part of psyche all of that even though it could be seen as marketing that should be established as part of branding before you even create the name for the"