All right, I'm here with Dr. Eugene Lipov and Jamie Mustard, best -selling authors of The Invisible Machine, the startling truth about trauma and scientific breakthrough. I'm sorry, a scientific breakthrough that can transform your life. Both pioneers in the area of dual sympathetic reset procedure. Guys, welcome to the show. Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you so much for having us on. It's a pleasure to be here. Now, Dr. Lipov, I just finished your book just the other night, and I was just blown away at really how you kind of stumbled upon this procedure that's been going on since the early 1920s, but now it's like been revitalized. It seems like there's like this new resurgence of it, the Renaissance, if you will, of doing it again, and you're like the pioneer really spearheading that, and it just always blows me away. Like, that's great, but how did you get here? How did you get started and learn about this procedure being an anesthesiologist, I believe? I, thank you. Well, first of all, yes, I am definitely an anesthesiologist, for sure. Well, I would say it's not a resurgence. I think it's repurposing. What's new about it is we're repurposing the procedure for mental health. So typically anesthesiologists like, such as myself, who specialize in pain medicine, take care of pain medicine. So the history of the procedure was the first time Stelling -Ingdon block was ever done. That's one level injection here, 1926 for asthma. Since - What were they noticing, sorry to cut you off, but what were they noticing back in the 1920s that if you do a Stelling -Ingdon block here, and that's when you're pointing to the neck, for the people that are just listening to the audio, they may not be able to see, you're kind of pointing to the neck area. Are you, is that, would that be what I think is in the book is you talk about C3, the cervical spine, and C6 a lot. Is that kind of what you're talking about? And what was it doing for asthma back then? I don't even know how the correlation would be. That's a tremendous question. So, well, first of all, there are seven vertebrae in any mammal. Giraffe has seven, we have seven. So C7 is the bottom of the neck. C6 is right above it. C3 is almost up to the skull. So the standard technique was C6 or C7 Stelling -Ingdon block, one level. So they were doing it, they found that if you do an injection for asthma, it takes away asthma away. It's a really complicated reason. I actually wrote a paper on that a couple of years ago explaining a lot of the effects. It's crazy how that works, but that's outside this realm. Anyway, so we started doing it, we being anesthesiologists pain doctors. So as pain doctors, we have been doing Stelling -Ingdon blocks for arm pain, burning hand primarily since the forties. The first time I ever did the Stelling -Ingdon block was 1987 for CRPS or burning of the hand. And then, you know, I've been doing it for a number of years and then I had a patient that had hot flashes and we treated her hot flash using stellate. Actually, my brother came up with the concept because he thought, you know, hot flashes, everything is hot, burning hand, same thing. And I said - His brother's a physician, by the way, he's not a random guy that came up with the idea. He's a very smart dog. Anyway, we did the procedure and took away the hot flashes. We published and that worked well. Then Chicago Tribune came by to do a paper on me, basically saying how it's working. So they said, yes, it's working, but basically you're an incompetent hack because you don't know how, you don't know why it works, so you shouldn't be doing it. So I didn't disagree with that, shall we say. And they, what I tried to do is figure out why it worked for hot flashes. So I came across one paper from Finland where they were putting a throw card on the chest, putting the, moving the lung out of the way and clipping the nerves in the chest. And they were doing it for hand sweats. They found PTSD went away. So I wrote that paper and I thought, that's crazy how that works. I didn't, whatever. Anyway, so I looked at the anatomy. Turns chest out nerve goes to the neck nerve. From the neck it goes to the brain and that affects PTSD. So I called up my brother. I said, send me a patient's PTSD. He had one like that who was robbed at gunpoint and all type of bad things happened. Two months later, he was on his way to his psych ward. So we did an injection on the neck and his PTSD went away. That led to my first publication in 2008 and then that led to people following my work in Walter Reed, the Navy. I gave testimony in front of Congress and off we went. And then as we progressed, I'll give you more information later, but we found that when you do an injection two levels, C6 and C3, that's called DSR, dual sympathetic reset, because we're doing two levels inside of one that seems to be more effective. So that's our current latest and the greatest technique. Yeah, so amazing. I follow, you guys know my background and just I'm into this health. I'm into the biohacking. I understand a lot of this. And until reading your book, I never heard a DSR. And so I'm just so grateful that you are putting this out there so that more people in the world can learn. And I'm hoping that this podcast and many others will help promote it because it just, after reading your book, there's just so much transformation that can be done as you know, through just the PTSD or PTSD is referred to the book, the injury, because that's what it really is. Not a disorder for most people. It's an injury. And guess what? When you change the input that the body receives, the body can heal. It just needs the right input. And that's what you guys are doing. So yeah, so grateful. Can I tell about the PTSD thing, where that came from? Please. So there is an amazing psychiatrist out there. Thankfully, he's still alive, Frank Uggberg. He was number two man for NIMH, which is National Institute of Mental Health. He was part of the terminology development in 1980 for PTSD. So he came up with the term Stockholm syndrome. You may have heard of that. That's his terminology. So in 19, I think 2005 or 2006, he started to propagate this concept, PTSI, post -traumatic stress injury. Basically, if there is an emotional trauma, not physical trauma, no blow to the head, the brain changes. And we know that based on advanced scanners, such as PET scan and FMR, things like that. So when somebody says PTSD is invisible wound, my answer is you have the wrong scanner. If you have the right scanner, you'll be able to see it. Let me, can I comment on that? About Frank Uggberg, he coined the terms post -traumatic stress injury because post trauma creates a biological change in the body. Dr. Lipov in the early 2000s figured out a way to reset the body to the pre -trauma state in a simple outpatient procedure over one to two days. In 1970, Mr. Ockberg wrote a book with a bunch of Stanford scientists called Violence and the Struggle for Existence. Coretta Scott King did the forward to that book because it was two years after Martin Luther King was assassinated. And there's a chapter in that book called Biology and Aggression. And one of the things that they're proposing in that book, this is 50 years ago, is that we know that trauma is biological. And the reason we know is because if you traumatize an animal, a cat, a goat, a sheep, any animal, okay, it changes. It either gets very hostile or very timid. It's not, doesn't have a disorder. We've changed its biology. And, but they just didn't know how. So when, but Dr. Lipov with his dual sympathetic reset, he basically 35 years later, found that mechanism of what is causing that change towards timidity or aggression from trauma and the symptoms that make one act that way. And he's able to reset it in a simple outpatient procedure without drugs that is 85 to 90 % effective in the relief of the worst symptoms of post -traumatic stress. It's amazing. Jamie, and actually on your note, I was just thinking, and I can't remember if this, I've read so many books now, I'm getting them all mixed up, but I think maybe in the book you guys talk about, speaking of animals, if a duck or an animal gets stressed, right, they will shake, they shake because with the shaking actually pushes that stress out of the body. And I can't remember if it was your book or not, but they were talking about like, but if a duck or whatever they get in a fight, they'll just, they'll shake it off. And then they come right back into their clan or wherever they're at, and it's gone. They're back into it. But so I was just thinking about the whole biology, but you're right. We all think of this psychology, it's a psychological issue, it's a mental disorder. No, there's visible trauma, as you said, from Dr. Amen talking about spec scans and FMRIs and all those kinds of things. Yeah, I mean, you can see it on, I'll say this in my layman's terms, and then you can fix me. What Dr. Lipov is talking about is if you were using an FMR scan on somebody that has post -traumatic stress symptoms, feels it in their body, you would see overactivity in their amygdala, and you might see decreased blood flow to their frontal cortex, okay? So he goes in, he does this injection. It's the same $2 amount of anesthesia that goes into an epidural. So the pharmaceutical companies will never back it because you don't need to be dependent after you do this, right? And he basically, it's like rebooting a computer. He turns off the sympathetic nervous system with this anesthesia. It reboots 15 minutes later. It takes a few hours for it to wear off the day, but it really reboots about 15 minutes later. And when it comes back online, it comes back online at baseline, pre -trauma state. So what's really important about what you said earlier, Joel, about when you would talk about post -traumatic stress disorder or mental illness, is that's not what's going on when you see a traumatized person. When you see a traumatized person, you have a person with a broken leg you can't see. It is a physiological injury that we can now see and treat. And calling it a disorder or calling it mental illness, A, it's scientifically false, it's not true, and B, it's incredibly stigmatizing and it doesn't open up an opportunity for progress or fixing it. I believe that Dr. Lipov's innovation, he may, he'll find this incredibly, he's humble, but I think it is the most important medical innovation since the discovery of penicillin in 1928. In terms of the numbers, far more outweighs, if you look at how many people a year were saved by the polio vaccine in terms of lives lost, you might look at 50 ,000 people a year. If you look at people that do, even from the mildest forms of post -traumatic stress to suicidal ideation, you really, when we could talk about what the symptoms are, people that do this do not end up committing suicide. You know, the amount of lives saved from lack of suicide, less suicides alone, let alone all the various physical disease that's caused by the sympathetic nervous system being stuck in front of flight, the amount of lives saved by Dr. Lipov's innovation profoundly dwarfs even the polio vaccine. Well, so, hold on. So now I have to speak kind of medical science, right? I mean, that's essentially true. We don't have, I don't have, you know, if somebody asked me, it's like, show me the evidence, show me the evidence of success rates. So success rates are 80 to 90 % is about right.