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Automatic TRANSCRIPT

I'm with ruler Caliph the deputy editor of the F. T. and she's had recently rather astonishing interview. She met recently Hattie's challenges who of course found herself at the center of an international drama indeed something of a horror story last October. This is when the young Turkish academic were seen waiting outside the Saudi consulate in Istanbul for her fiance who never appeared that man of course was the Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi details of whose murder at the hands of Saudi the thugs would leak out over the coming days and weeks so so really just start by telling us. What is the state of the investigation into Khashoggi's death? Well depends what you mean by investigation and which investigation in Saudi Arabia Arabia a group of people are being put on trial but we know very little about this trial elsewhere. There has been a U._N.. report by a U._N.. Expert on the murder however that report does not or have any legal basis it only makes recommendations and it has recommended an impartial international investigation for that to happen however you would need you on Security Council approval and I don't expect that exactly exactly 'cause you're touching on the really important point of the sort of full out of this whole saga namely. It doesn't look as if we're going to be many repercussions for the Saudi regime does it and why is that. I think that there were initially some repercussions for the. The Saudi regime mainly reputational a lot of business. People and political figures stayed away from Saudi Arabia. There was a bit conference. That was a flop but I think over time things of return to normal. I don't think the reputation of the Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman the man we know as and BS will ever really fully recover but I think that once Western governments and especially the U._S. government can't say that doing business with Saudi Arabia's fine he was for example at the g twenty in fact Saudi Arabia is going to be hosting the g twenty next year that is kind of rehabilitation Saudi Arabia hosting the g twenty year stunning given all that happened and imagine particularly appalling news for your lunch companion. The other day had tease Chang who is campaigning passionately for Kashoggi's motorists to be brought to justice. is is Here a clip now so I want to know who gave the order to kill them out and who else knew I want to know. Where is his body? I implore you to take action darkness essay. It is time for sanctions so that was her tease. Chang is speaking at the U._N.. Human Rights Council in Geneva last month. The Agnes was referring to as Agnes Calamar the special reporter on extrajudicial killings who had in fact just revealed called the results of this investigation you talking about ruler which found quote credible evidence clothes quotes that senior Saudis implicated in Mr Kashoggi's murder but let's turn to at t's challenges this was a powerful and really poignant. Poignant interview you had to do rule tell us what impression did you make. It was obviously a painful interview. It's painful for her to speak about Sharma but I think she's also now very driven. She is so frustrated by the silence she so frustrated by the fact that there has been no action that she's now turned this into her mission. Jomo Hachioji was essentially fighting for human rights. It's this is what he was writing about and she now feels that she has to take up that fight as I write in my lunch with the F. T. she now knows that she is part of the story. She's been studying the Middle East for a long time and now she feels that she's become one of its victims and there are so many of them so she was fighting back tears the whole lunch at one point when she tells me about the nights when she knew for sure that Jamal was dead. That's when her tears came rushing down one of the many things that struck me about her accounting hug conversation with you was relatively brief had in her relationship with Jamalco. Gee I mean they don't known each other for a few months. I wonder if you could just say a little bit about how they met in the nature of their relationship yes they only met in May of last year they met at a conference about the Gulf in Istanbul. Jamaa was speaking at that conference and she had only known him as someone who should seen on T._v.. She'd read him. She was very interested in Saudi Arabia and she was very keen to interview him about what. What was going on in Saudi Arabia what he was writing about and so she just goes up to him and introduces herself and says can we talk? Can you give me a few minutes and she speaks to him in Arabic because she speaks pretty fluent Arabic and I think that impresses impresses Jamal and so they meet up he asks her by Turkish awesome about Saudi and then she contact him again to tell him when the story is going to be published and two. I think check some quotes that's next time he goes to Turkey. They meet up again but this was a very quick romance in many ways but from what she told me this also has to do with the fact that Jemaah was in a very uncomfortable place ace at the time he was sort of looking for a new life. He'd been exiled in the U._S.. He was on his own so he was looking for a companion and he was very depressed and I think that they found in each other. You know the person she understood him. He understood her and so yes. This was a marathon romance. When he was murdered? He was writing columns for the Washington Post but as his then fiancee points out in this interview he actually in previous part of his life. He'd been an advisor to some members of the Saudi Royal Family Herself says in this interview one of the many powerful lines she says Jamal was from the palace not from outside it. He was not their enemy. Can you tell us why were they so frightened of him. Why did they have to kill him well? It's a very good question Alec. I don't think that anyone really knows why they were so frightened of him but it is also possible that they weren't that frightened of him. They had a strategy. Ah of silencing anyone who was critical of the Crown Prince Jamal wasn't the only one many of journals friends who stayed in Saudi Arabia are in jail and this new regime demint Saudi Arabia requires not only that you don't criticize they require that you approve the reason Jamal had left was because he did not want to engage and to support award a very hostile strategy towards cutter he was required to write in support of the strategy and that's where he drew the line and so there is such an intolerance that even someone who is only a writer actually not a writer who schooling for revolution a writer who wants Saudi Arabia to correct and to move on a better path. I mean you can even argue that much of what he was. Writing was advice to the crown prince but there is zero tolerance. It's not going to be easy for her. T snow is it nearly a year has passed as you said earlier for some parts of the sort of Western business in foreign policy establishment is not quite business as usual but they are going to re apply some of those ties to Saudi. What do you see happens to her now to? She pursue this cause at U._N.. How does she make any headway? I found and her to be very determined. I think that she wants to use the Kalama a report to try to put pressure on Western governments but may be more broadly she. Will become a voice that is just fighting for human rights at some point. I imagine she would even have to address that in Turkey. Because of course there are a lot of journalists who are jailed elden Turkey for hottest today. Her cause is Jamal but I think that she may also in the future want to broaden her course that it's not Jamaa and the Truth About Jamaa which I'm sure she will continue to fight for but YEP. She may very well be campaigner for human rights all is thrust upon her shoulders after just knowing him for a few months extraordinary I think we should end with a clip from Matisse which is also something of a call to arms from in her and she said this at the U._N.. Session in Geneva last month echoing what she said to you in this remarkable interview it's not only my below Jamal who was more that they but also democracy human rights and freedoms the failure to punish murderers F._X.. Also Mr Chair the truth always wins. He's story. We'll take note of those who stood with through and those who did not police take action.