"I think people are way too attached. Languages languages come and go every three to four years. people are re architect ing making changes. I A lot of people are are committing their organizations to a path without knowing how hard it's going to be changed as opposed to saying this is where we're solving wing for today with tomorrow at mind we think we know that things might shifted change over time because everybody has had to re architect and in in many cases multiple times that was the voice of Jessica. Hall the A CO author of the book the Product Mindset today is the second part of my interview with Jessica. You didn't listen to the first part encourage you to go back and listen to that before you dive into today's is episode. My name is Jonathan Cottrell and you're listening to develop not in my goal on the show is to help driven developers like you find clarity. Perspective can purpose pissing your careers. Let's get straight into part two of my interview with Jessica Hall. I'd love for you to kind of explain further about how how I might know more practically dive into a product mindset. What are some ways some things that I do today that maybe I'm not going to do in in two or three years and instead. I'm going to be doing something else. What are those things that you see a Mo- more developers participating in the future. Yes in the product lines. Mindset has three principles that kind of underlie all things it starts with a fundamentally before principles building for outcomes outcomes that we're not just here to build code. We're here to build businesses to help. Businesses serve customers and to grow the end to continue to innovate that it's not just about the Kobe right but what does that code create. What is that code enable. What value does it deliver and the first principle is minimize typed value. Which is the idea that you know when you are working working in your I d e when you're writing things in Jira. When you're planning meetings when you're doing sticky notes drawing diagrams that's activity the value exists in the hands of your customers value exists when they can work with the prototype or use a productive feature in production or staging That's value exists in their hands where they can do something. So how do you as fast as possible. Put something to their hands. How how do you reject the notion that it has to be complete as to be fully implemented have every bell and whistle it has to have feature parity plus everything else. What is the smallest all set of things that you can do that solve the problem for somebody? PUT IT in their hands. How do you kind of slice across and say I'm going to deliver the ability for you to to look at this for you to manipulate it in for you to get some sort of result on just this thin stripe things and that from there. I can see people gosh should be really. I you know I really want to be able to do this thing great. Let me build that thing. You know. It doesn't account for this thing awesome. I'll get on that next but that first principles really the idea idea that we have to deliver that small sliver that small piece of the feature not everything and I think it goes back to school where you have this ocean of completeness and I don't want an incomplete. That's like that's bad. I can't simplify these things down. I can't cut it down. Just take a piece but taking a piece allows you to reduce waste to increase learning to start generating interest. Perhaps general revenue much sooner so the question you to ask yourself. Else is our minimizing time value when you go to plan your releases. Are you thinking about in every release in every sprint whatever you know analogy use news. How fast are we delivering value to. Our customers are waiting too long before we giving them things. Do we have things that are clogging up the pipeline that if we could streamline them we did you get things out faster which means we can learn faster. How do why isn't it in junior developer. Maybe think about implementing something that might get it done a little bit quicker a little bit simpler as opposed to something that maybe Nouri ability to scale but honey. We Ain't scaling yet. We don't even have ten customers so or win. The team goes to do release planning to say okay. Let's break this down and make sure we have something that we can release that we can deliver value to our our customers in that. We can learn and we're open in. We value without learning the NEX principle is solved for neat so the idea is that AH product needs to solve a need. When is that need. Why does this thing is exists. What do we do for people you know. Kenya explain you're at a bar with someone you just met like why your product matters and you know. What is the need? A needs is our best to find a by state like I can't do any better than him so I'm GonNa have to use his you know. It's you know it's a problem you know. Oh The doing laundry is a pain in the butt and you probably don't enjoy doing laundry your number two. I know that that I know the extent that it takes time and effort if I don't do you know if I don't get it done. That aren't where until you you can. You can put a price on that pain. that you're trying to fix your trying to fix it. You're trying to improve it somehow. You're hacking something together your laundry scheduler. You're you're using. You're trying different services and things in nothing's quite working and you're in the last. You're willing to invest in a solution. That's a neat neat. That's something I I can. I know I haven't if someone has a problem. They don't identify. They don't feel they don't connect act with they haven't figured that out yet good luck trying to cells kind of have to admit that they know it's a problem. They know it hurts. They're trying stuff suffer not finding the right thing. They're willing to make an investment in the new thing that's where you WanNa play and so that's kind of where it helping understand the customer and having spent some time. No one's asking you to do detailed research. Maybe read some of the research that your team is put together. Maybe look at some of the data. Maybe listen to an interview. There's something really powerful about connecting with other humans. the last one is accelerate age the so that comes in a couple different ways you know back in the day. You still only be able to release once a month now. We have good better tooling. better processes better ways to be able to deploy more often being willing to invest in that. I'm reading. This book called accelerate about the science of devops. It is is not an easy by any stretch like I can only go do a couple of pages at a time because it's so dense but it's also antastic in making the case through were very rigorous data heavy process of why to make that investment but it's not just the technology piece of that end getting your organization to invest in technology not the decision making you know a lot of people complain that priorities change at my answers will yeah they should because has everything around the spill change companies change markets change regulations change so why shouldn't priorities change its priorities changing such assigned. FLAKA organization who doesn't know what they're doing at their if they are changing without reason they're changing. They have been measured. They're changing aging because you know somebody right has shiny object syndrome that bad and he usually people call me because because somebody's got shiny objects in Rome. That's not not uncommon big but if they're changing because there is something has changed in the world and we need to respond to it. That's thank goodness right. Yeah thank goodness that retained because if we don't somebody else will get their first and we may not be here so changing priorities isn't necessarily a bad thing. I need people to kind of think that when priorities changing question where that's coming from rather than say oh my gosh product. Doesn't you know what's going on. Our leadership. Team doesn't know what's going on. Don't blindly execute yourself to the bottom of the ocean. Yeah this is a this is a problem right because if you if you look at what what do you mean when you say change. There's multiple things going on. You're you are in your environment and you may be doing something in that environment but if the environment changes around you then there's it's essentially indistinguishable able whether you changed or the environment changed right in other words. You can keep on doing the same thing but that doesn't mean that doing doing the same thing is going to result in the same outcome. This is very It's obviously true right because you can say okay well. Masika a silly example. This is unrealistic. Let's say that I'm awake. Now I might as well just continue staying awake and I'm not GonNa Sleep when when when the when night falls because I'm awake and I don't WanNa change that's crazy right because we're talking about a different scale of of changing and to to maintain homeostasis for your body. You need to sleep right so in a way. If you don't want to change you you should sleep right so if let's say that the other scale that we're measuring on is growth company is growing. You know say they're. They're growing their revenue. year of year at one hundred percent. I don't know some unrealistic number and they they don't WanNa change well. What is it that they don't want to change. Do they want to continue growing their revenue or do they not want to change something else and allow their revenue to sink right. That's so so so I think we we want to maintain our behaviors but we forget that our behaviors are not the entire story that the environment is changing around us and so you're not the same person that you were before. You're not the same company that you were before and certainly the things that you did before or not. GonNa have the same effect as they a- as they had previously yeah ain't that painted a but it makes it hard right. How do you know what to do. I will gosh it's really hard to say now. I I'm reminded of Pixar Stringer hits day very deliberately brought brought in that Bradburn who got like fired by budget studios and said. We believe you will challenge us. You will shake it up. You will not allow us to go into complacency with toy story seventeen or something and so he he was the you know the person's shake it up any took. Everybody wanted to shake things up in the whole company. Put the one team and they may day incredible and so. It's hard to to do that in You know it's it's rough. If you want to continue to see those numbers go up. You WanNa continue doing something. That makes you feel safe insecure that you know you can do that noble when it all feels like it. Smooth food is coming. I mean I hate to be the doomsday device but something is on the horizon. We've never I don't think again. I'm going to get this wrong but I think the number is that fifty seven or seventy five percent of fortune one hundred will turn over the next two years that didn't happen twenty years ago but it happened today the end you've got choices to make somebody who's GonNa income for you or you. Comfort yourself tied to keep pushing it forward and and that's that's scary and that's hard and your company evolves. Maybe some of the same people they write for it anymore."