us. Radio Atlantic is brought to you by the all new Lucille Packard children's hospital located on the Stanford University campus, whether it's using next-generation technology to treat the next generation attacking tumors with sound waves instead of surgery or bringing the outside in. These are just a few of the ways they're redefining what a children's hospital can be. Visit Stanford children's dot org to learn more. Two. Jim, I wanted to ask you mentioned the Trump time capsule, which was an exercise in sort of chronicling the campaign of Donald Trump as he was ascending to what would become the presidency. But you've paid a lot of attention to our president. What now has surprised you most, um, would have been the moments that now stick out as while? We never thought that I would see that. I suppose the live there have been two positive sources of surprise. One is that we have an all been blown up. You know that they're that they're world is a big and tricky and dangerous place in North Korea and in Iran the South China Sea and in all sorts of other places. And I think so far there's been an almost M, A abashed or cautionary seeming reaction even from kept are known in North Korea thinking while we don't really want to rock the boat so much much here. So that is in a positive surprise. I guess the sort of response of civic society around the country has been somewhat, uh, positive to the the part of the sort of negative surprise to me is in not surprised, but but but realization is the erosion day by day of the things that to me, make me proud to be an American, The inclusiveness of the country, It's a bronze mindedness of being an arena where people from around the world can. Can realise their dreams we have been at it gets both A ideological intellectual advantage to us in the practical advantage to I think we're we're giving that up. The other is as mentioned earlier, that that so few people in the Republican Party, even those who have nothing to lose no more like Bob Corker or Jeff Flake or the many Republican congressmen are not running more are not saying, I'm auditioning now for my role in the new version of profiles encourage, I'm going to say, Now, here's I'm going to vote for this or that I'm going to join a majority to ask for investigations, Kim, Do you think it? I feel like I keep asking you to make predictions in life. In life in this world And and I I, you know, as we talk about the erosion of institutions and the people who are complicit in that erosion, um, do you think there are consequences for people who abide by open secrets? Because I look at Hollywood knife, a, you know, there was some talk. If you look at Harvey Weinstein, the people who serve who were around Weinstein, like, would they fate or any of these sexual predators? Would they face some kind of retribution or punishment for having basically abetted illegal if not toxic behavior on. And I, I kinda wonder whether you think they're roll. I mean, I ha, I want to eat. I am not going to make it a prediction. Do you think that their consequences for people who live with and help keep if you will open secret? You certainly I think they're eras in history. We look back on new. We say they should have done more. The grotesque extreme case would of course, be leading the Nazis, come to power, but it would be in the Civil Rights Movement. It would be in nineteen, sorry, mirrored Now or your McCarthy period and all the restaurant when I was an and college that the present University was a guy who's whole reputation was having stood up. Uh, you know, the the previous generation ago against McCarthy and shaming those who hadn't. So I think this will be my one prediction for the episode that a generation from now twenty years. Now when people look back on this era, they'll say, Why weren't more people taking a stand? Why weren't more people who could have done something doing something? They're saying that now about Hollywood, They said it. About corporate corruption we certainly say at about, you know all the other episodes I was mentioning. I think they'll say that twenty years from now about the people who were not taking Sands I I tried not in the time capsule to say, This is the person you are. Endorsing institutional Republicans. Consider how this is going to look in histories I so solar prediction is predicated on the idea that were not an irreversible decline though. Like you know me Jeff Tarango some goes down. I'm I'm serious though. I mean, you assume that there's a bounce back here that this entered a snap back. What is there have to be a snap? So, so to wax both serious and and greybeard here in the US has been through a lot of troubles nece not yet evident. This is a worse episode than ever before to NATO Anka worst national politics in a long time, but but in your previous podcast about a year of 1968 I actually was around then that was a terrible time of day by day disc things were really happening in they even worse fashion than now. So was the climate were at a climate was worse. I think you have there were a couple dozen cities. There were outright riots going on at the same time and having two major assassinations within a time of of of, uh, three months and and you know hundreds of Americans per week being killed in Vietnam. You know, it was a it was a fraying time, But Kim, the circumstances. And the the the divide may have been steeper an and bloodier and all the rest, but in terms of the institutions themselves and the man leading those institutions, I mean, I can't remember who was recently set that if Nixon had had Fox News, he might not have been. He might not have had to resign. I would agree. And I think that is one one case where were on ambiguously were in more institutional trouble than fifty years ago now, which is that there was for better and worse a commanding heights of mainstream media. Those days. The worst part is if they didn't pay attention to the Civil Rights Movement or didn't pay attention to women or whatever attention did not get paid. The good part is they could say, Look Vietnam is not working out, Look of, you know, you have to pay attention to this or that, um, a development and in civil, right? So there was there, there wasn't the equivalent of Fox News, which are they could have legitimised Annex. So it to return to this question of, You know, what are we to do with all of this one of our colleagues, Um, Jim ham. Len are resident, uh, MD on berated staff recently wrote a robust peace, arguing that there should be some sort of a body non-partisan body, independent of Congress and independent of any particular president That could evaluate the president. Louis, let Jim talk about his idea here, a panel of people who are expert in Neurology psychology like, Hey tree, who could not only It miniature battery of kept about a person's cognitive fitness, but could then offer an expert assessment of the same way that if EPO might offering in on about what will happen with a health care bill and how it will affect the nation. Ill Fort working economy, the number of people without insurance, that a group of seven or nine or eleven people appointed by Congress could say, Okay, We've given the president beef or the president candidate these, uh, based on a result, He's in the. Can percentile of cognitive functioning in the different ways, and we think he would not be able to execute Well the office of the presidency and do with that. What you will. I think it's a nice idea, but the chances of it actually working are I mean, we're in a moment where were debating Skliva change. I mean, where the CBO as now been a body that is under attack by Republicans in congress when it doesn't deliver the numbers that they're looking for. That number, that when it does deliver numbers that are not politically expeditious. So the idea that an independent body or person would be able to sort of makeup health judgment about the fitness of a leading political candidates. Seems like we are to do her of that though for physical health. I mean the president, I think you know if the President has disastrous blood pressure will We'll find out by the way we haven't gotten the results of Trump's own physical. But I think Jim's talking more about a a sort of cognitive psychological profile I I don't think is going to happen now, but all ideas like this seem problem at first and then they get, you know, carried through and we will see who without with any look, the country will be able to institute that sort of process without first go through a disaster in this presidency. Uh, but you know it it certainly a disaster in this presidency will spur, that kind of thing on Jim didn't. Jimmy Carter talk about this in the nineties after Reagan's Alzheimer's was made public. He did. And I think that some of that was dismissed because Carter had famously lost to run a regular night. He was bitterly. Did Wait a second. If only had the same campaign speech writers, He had four years ago. I know we're all laughing about it, but inevitably immune, it will have to be a Republican that jurists this idea and I think no matter what happened, the venture Ripple inner the point Jeff makes about blood pressure is a a role in at one in that we tend to have an institutional solution to the last guys problems and releasing presidential medical records only became common after Dwight Eisenhower had his heart attacks and tax records only after Richard Nixon and his various issues. And the war Powers Act after Vietnam. And so I think that probably after Trump will have something like this, But I probably like both of you or like I don't think it will relate kick do into function with him and gyms point in part of the of Dr him Hamlin's point is that having a conversation about certainly the cognitive fitness of the president, The mental functioning of the president absent and independent, and non-partisan context in which a body of experts can speak to that fitness is itself. Irresponsible and itself causes harm. I've tried to take into account all the way that two discussion can go wrong. People who interact with the psychiatric system in all kinds of ways can be affected people who are of advanced ages and who experience discrimination based on that could be harmed by it. And the ways in which it can be responsibly talked about at the assumption that there is nothing to be clean from the cognitive sciences into what a person's past and present behavior tells us about their future. Is he responds with think that there's nothing that can be learned? Um, at the same time, I think it's irresponsible to simply be applying labels to people from ups far without ever having personally interacted with them. My view of this is the I above tried to avoid systematically medicalising discussion of Trump. If you give it a name, You can give it a name. But what we we know what his performance is. We know the way he talks about issues, We know his temperament. And so we can judge that just without giving it a medical name. One of your points, Jim, about the president is th. The distinguishes this moment from some of the moments at that had preceded it. When similar questions have been, the raised is the quality of Trump's team. What worst perhaps this, the, the novice quality of Trump's team in some instances and, um, you recently made an observation about, um, Stephen Miller, um, about a moment in Stephen Miller wonder if you could tease out for. S So the context See Miller is doing an interview the other day with Jake Tapper. Uh, where he he was quite combative. I was I was booked to talk about the very issues I'm just ascribing air not even asked me about because they're not interesting facts trip. That's not true. I have a plenty of questions and their great. Razer. No, about by talking about your flight now, I want to ask you a question because as you all know, Joey sent, I'm Geoff, even Jay prevalent in the White House reason. Why? The president, white reason why I wanted to talk about the president's experience. That's what I've seen with him. Travelling to me dozens of foreign leaders with his incredible work. Okay. Westerns youngest ended up twenty four hours a day of Stephen aerial you're you're not going to give three minutes for the American. The real looks year. Donald Trump is one viewer that you care about right now, and you're being obsequious being a fat. Oh, the minority lease. What stuck out? Oculus. That's like the soundtrack of our lives Visit Liz. The fact that strictly is deeply of wasn't what was remarkable about what, while the the precision of Jake Tapper saying the and there's one listener you care about because obviously Stephen Miller with his sort of down will line, um, a of support of Trump with a certain kind of right Kohn a sever fares at to it was that that that is something that distinctly previous people in this role have known not to do. And let's let's think of White House aide. Let one of the jobs White House aides to go on TV and make the case. But even those who might be pretty acerbic in person like Jody Powell Who is Jimmy Carter's press secretary, my de facto boss, He was kind of a mean guy. Um, James Carville could be a mean, guy said new new who worked in the Bush administration, that cetera. When these guys went on TV, the idea was to have the charm offensive because the audience wasn't just the president and the it was to people in Congress. So as to the public, It was to the interviewer to try to have some kind of I E Q connection. So. This is a again, this is this is something new in the annals of of what for us. I would first division, Stephen Miller is in his early thirties. Do you think he envision And so successful. Do you think he envisions life beyond the Trump White House? Because one would imagine the prospect of that should curb some of his more combative impulse such a Washington careers, or I'm just thinking my he believed that is the Hina interview. He believe it's not the first time this observation has been made, but there is definitely a reality, television component to that, and that there is a character in that's popular in this White House in the analogue to that character has not previously been popular before. That's the reality show. Character is it's constantly saying, I'm not trying to be anybody's best friend this White House. There are a lot of folks in this White House. We're not trying to be any of it is that of your house for the president. And it's possible that this is various. This role which Corien Dusky had for a awhile Bannon in his own charm offensive way had had two. And I in the tapes of Stephen Miller back from his days at Santa Monica high school. This seems to be the real him. This is the guy, And if to the extent he is a principle speechwriter which I gather is, is the case. It's a tone that come through a lot of the speeches going back to the famous American carnage address with which this whole era began and about which George W Bush refer Didn't didn't George W Bush called that weird shit. Without was the free. We willingly. The Dow is the weird shit speech. I'll be happy about by about me, so they don't ask those questions being of once again president President, George W Bush. Um, uh, many of observe the President Bush A Bush forty three has come to be in a statesman. In contrast to President Trump and that it's a surprised to have such a a stark contrast between the last two Republican presidents. And how do you how do you Majko's in Jim now view the way the President Bush was described in discussed in the media. Now in light of President, Trump. So George W Bush will always be the person who made what is my view. The greatest error in modern American history invading Iraq. He will always be a person who had a I think an economically destructive tax cut at cetera, cetera. But he seems to be number one to have qualities of personal decency and generosity, and number two to understand the institutional role of the president and the past president to and to try do things to be president of all the people. So I, I respect him a lot for them though. Let us dare to the closing segment of ours Show this week every Gasquet the question, What is your keeper? What have you heard seen? Watch? Listen to recently that you do not want to forget. Um, Jeff have always we start with you. I think I'm going to betray my age and socio-economic glass when I say that, I can't get enough of the crown mountain air. I am a So we thought it was all yell, MTV rat videos from the new. 900 continuous loop air house bachelor Diarra. Last night I was I was waiting to my son koo koo MOD was while I had been there. He started the conversation racing. Have you ever heard of someone named Dougie fresh? Oh, I share like son have I ever have the talk? But I've moved out of the Geigy Friday moved from school E D and Kumo D and Curtis blow right to the crown without really much of a ally wage. BJP cool her if underlying directly to Queen learn I I I will confess my wife and I spent New Year's Eve watching the crown. Very happily take realize how I don't know why it's because it's a riveting delicious show saw. And you know what? You Ovalles keepers. Queen Elizabeth. UNPROFOR around I just I around his look, I I recognize that it's an idealized version. Let's show loves Queen Elizabeth but you know what, but so do I. Yeah. Yeah. Thrown glare foyer I can't get enough of quickly clarify lie as Queen. Therefore his grinning awesome Clervoy should probably stop acting. This is how it Wiggs Queen Elizabeth is that she is she enemies during his lives Beth Sal and are in the next girl with the blank. Yeah, which is thing. Yeah, true story. You heard it here first, Mr when she leaves the The Crown I gotta tell you that we all well, Man, Alex Wood is your keeper. Mike Hooper is as similarly similarly bourgeois. I am reading like, these are just the these keepers are like newsflash were doing the things that everybody else is doing. I'm reading Manhattan Beach by Jennifer Egan and she's a really good writer. Everybody knew that I've read several other books, But this one is really very, very good. And if you're if you've gone through a season, do of the crown a need, some evening, entertainment, Pick up a copy E or otherwise of Manhattan Beach and no, I'm not on the payroll. Excellent. Thank you very much for that. Jennifer Egan. What's the name of at your Manhattan? Beach, and out and beach, Jim. Um, I will endorse both of those in all plant, a little seed for our next to the next time I, I join you on the program which has to tell you by the time I actually sat next to Prince Phillip at a dinner, lowering eyeing those mice job situation. Follow us on Harry, let them know that is as her You can't tell us now. Well, sad to see how long that the show as but I I won't. It is a guy is, has Jim did he seem like a nice guy? We talked aviation that the sun were suddenly I asked him about his piloting career and and suddenly he would up And we spent the next two hours, And there I was at forty five hundred feet at cetera. It was. It was as you can see from the first season of the crown. That was a would actually I I think the one thing he really has enjoyed in his life as being a pilot, isn't there an anecdote of bowed that is in the FOXO in in World War One a World War Two that that the, the it a German soldier heads are ally Knack. The soldiers met across a trench in Christmas Day. I think they had the famous Druce rightness of this was anyhow. Uh, so that was a And so we don't need to come back in the show again because that's my principle. Although he did tonight. But my my Schieffer is that I've been reading Ron churn out by graffiti of Ulysses Grant, which really is magnificent as a work of narrative in history. And Grant himself was quite a guy, And I think there's nobody about whom I have changed. My opinion, more than Grant. On the meat, for example, I, he must have been the first American president to be to be able to speak Spanish from the Mexican war But it. But this is part of a larger meta point for me is on a try harder to read more things actually in print because you remember them better than you do through the magic of the screen. And also thank him for their on churn out book on Donald Trump at a zoo. The I can't wait for the Lin Manuel Miranda's use ago book about Donald Trump by turn out of it after going to be awesome. So my I usually do the bookkeepers and someone else usually does the food keepers, but my keep it this week is a food keeper um, who someone else. Uh, would you be offering to me? I'm Channel nine. I'm happy to be that somebody Hills does food. I like that device all going away, your food keepers, Alex. Thank you. They usually involve alcohol. Go ahead, friends. So, um, the in a Guyanese households There is a tradition on Christmas. Um, on Christmas morning, We have garlic pork, garlic pork. Uh, you begin to prepare garlic pork weeks in advance of Christmas. You get as much at of apologies for any ethical ethical. Uh, the deterence vegans in the room. I sympathize with your cause, however, garlic pork, um, for me is larger than it. Um, be begin with pork. You rub it up with his much time and garlic as you possibly can in you. So get in a bath of Vinegar. Uh, my mom does have in her have water for weeks. You leave it, you can leave it on a counter because it serves bathed in Vinegar. And then on Christmas morning, you do two things. First, you cook up the garlic quirky, put in stock, putting just Cook it down until the pork, just shrivels up into these delightful lease acidic Krispy bites, and you also parrot with home-made bread and my preferences homemade butter. So the sweetness of the Bread and the acidity of the butter form, the perfect pairing and your entire house snow. Mills of garlic and time on Christmas morning It is. I have just finished the last of the frozen garlic pork That is a leftover from Christmas. There's not usually leftovers from Christmas, but my mom major to set aside a little bit for me this year. It is a tradition that, um, that that you should carry forth unto all the generations. And a granted we are one day with we make it into the big leagues. We will get invited him to the Thompson Hathor garlic Park Yuxiao you shall maybe you're all invited links Christmas at a fuel happen to be with me in folks. Well, Well, you forget these books and movies garlic pork sounds like the way it is. It's an open secret. Now it it's on my mind. I definitely daughter forget it because it's it's the last that I'm going to have it for another like three hundred and fifty some odd days, sir. Till then to meet again garlic pork till we meet again, co-hosts And Jim. Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you for having me here. Thank you. Thank you. Alex, Jeff. Don't. I try. That'll do it for this week's radio Atlantic. This episode was produced in edited by Kevin Townsend with production support from a Douglas in Kim Lau. Thank you to the inestimable James follows for joining us, and Thanks as always to my co-hosts. Alex Wagner & Jeffrey Goldberg are theme. The Battle Hymn of the Republic is by the legendary John Batiste. Please leave us a voicemail with your contact info in your thoughts on this episode A 202 two six six seven six zero zero check us out at facebook.com / radio Atlantic in the Atlantic dot com slash radio catch the show notes In the episode description in if you like what you're hearing due rate in review as an Apple Podcast and subscribe in your preferred podcast app. Most importantly, Thank you for listening. Nate serve as proof of your good taste and unquestionable Smart's. We'll see you next week.