President Trump, Rudy Giuliani, Donald Trump discussed on As It Happens from CBC Radio


Tonight taking it from the top the United States Ambassador to the EU tells the impeachment inquiry. That White House pressure on Ukraine was a clear quid pro quo and all involved followed the president's orders. The wind out of a sales. A Maltese businessman is arrested while trying to escape on his luxury yacht August hopes his answers bring police step closer to solving her sister's murder coming to the aid of children's aid. Toronto's Child Welfare Agency partners with the national national charity to raise money for a new project. It will focus on keeping kids with their families on just 'cause Don trump pardons a US veteran of war crimes on snap Ghanistan a former army medic served in the same place says that's a serious miscarriage of justice. It was a big fan and so was she but now that the Ontario government has cancelled hundreds of green energy projects. Our guest will lose the wind turbine on her property and clean get-away a mechanical article engineers new nonstick spray. Mix toilet boom or slippery stopping stuff from sticking save space. Save US water as it happens. The Wednesday edition Talk Radio that engages anti-smoker campaign. The Gordon saw inland. Is the person person everyone in Washington has been waiting to hear from. You probably heard his name come up time and again throughout the impeachment inquiry. He's a key figure in the investigation. He was a hotel magnate and a major donor to trump's inaugural committee before he became the envoy to the European Union last year during testimony. Today Ambassador Sunland was clear he said said that. If Ukrainian President Vladimir Linski wanted a meeting with Mr Trump you would have to publicly announce investigations including one and Theresa the company where Joe Burdensome Hunter Sat on the board. Here's a master sunland speaking about that and president. Trump's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani. I know that members of this committee frequently frame. These complicated issues in the form of a simple question was there a quid pro quo as I testified previously with regard to the requested White House call and the White House meeting. The answer is yes. Mr Giuliani Johny conveyed to secretary. Perry Ambassador Volker and others that president trump wanted a public statement from presidents Alinsky committing committing to investigations of Berea. SMA and the two thousand sixteen election Mr Giuliani expressed those requests directly to the Ukrainians. and Mr Giuliani also expressed those requests directly to us we all understood that these prerequisites for the White House call and and the right White House meeting reflected president trump's desires and requirements throughout the day. Republicans on the House Committee attempted to poke holes in a master Solomon's testimony. Here's Republican John Radcliffe questioning ambassador ambassador. Sunland I'm going to try and quickly move to summarize is all of your direct communications with president trump as it relates to this inquiry. And of course you can correct me if I get it wrong on May twenty third. You had a group a meeting that included a what you call vanilla request about ending corruption involving Ukrainian oligarchs correct correct on July. I twenty fifth. You called president trump. Say you're on your way to Ukraine but nothing of substance occurred on that call correct correct on July twenty six. You had a five minute call a restaurant restaurant that you didn't originally remember because it according to your state and this morning quote did not strike me as significant at the time quote but once refreshed recalled that the primary Mary purpose was a rapper named Asep Rocky correct correct and on September ninth and most importantly reading from your deposition you call president trump to ask him. What do you want from Ukraine? He responded I want nothing. I want no quid pro quo. I once Alinsky to do the right thing. I want him to do you. What he ran on? What he ran on was fighting corruption? Correct correct and then lastly on October second in random in person meeting that you had uneventful finish president. He ran into president trump and advised him that you've been called to testify before Congress and he said to you good. Go tell the truth. That's correct all right. And that is the entirety of your recollection of your direct communications with President Trump. About these matters. I may have had another caller Paul or meeting or two I again. I wish Mr Cliff I had the record understand but this what you recall this. Okay Ambassador Gordon Sunlen speaking today during hearing in Washington Matthew Miller is MSNBC's justice and security analyst and a former chief spokesperson for the US. Department of Justice. Reach Mr Miller in Washington Matthew. Is it fair to say that Ambassador Song lend is a very different kind of witness than we've seen so far he is a supporter of Donald. Donald trump he was appointed by him. He is not what Republicans would call a member of the deep state. I think that's exactly right. Unlike some of the other witnesses who have come forward he's not a career career public servant. He's not someone who served for years and years and the State Department or the Department of Defense. He is a political appointee. He has his job because he gave a million dollars the president's inaugural fund. He's a lifelong Republican and someone who in his first appearance before the committee tried very hard to protect. The president tried so hard that some members of the committee accused him of perjuring himself. And you saw a very different tune from him on his in his appearance today. What does that does that different tune that he was singing today? I I think there are two things. He said that we're very Damning to the president today one was he made clear that there was a quid pro quo and he also made clear that the circle of people who knew about this attempt to influence Ukrainian government to open investigations was much broader than we've heard from previous witnesses. He made clear that it wasn't just the president and Rudy Giuliani. But also the president's chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence and the Secretary of state. Mike pompeo raising questions about how far the scandal extends beyond even the president himself that we heard. Ah The opening from representative John Ratcliffe Republican who go Soo. What was on the record? What what ambassadors on actually heard a AH Vanilla request for an investigation Mr Trump said? I don't want anything Go Tell Congress the truth and he points would miss rackliff points out. Does that different when people can look at the at the same information had come to different conclusions about really what Mr Trump's role in all this was is that fair. I I really don't think that exchange made the point Congressman Ratcliffe was hoping it would number one. Those are a lot of interaction for an ambassador to have with the president. I never talked regularly with the president. Other let's say you know big diplomatic events where they're kind of brief thirty second interactions. That was a high number of interactions number two. We know that according to ambassador silence testimony testimony the way the president was was influencing the operation of the government was not just through direct interactions with online and others. But he told them at the beginning. I want you to talk to rudy. And then Rudy would give them instructions. Rudy would tell them. These are the two things I want. I want these investigations and then the third point I think about that exchange changed. The congressman mentioned that final conversation. He has the final conversations before the forty the president tells them to go up until the truth where he talks to the president. The president tells him I want nothing no quid pro quo. The president only said that after he knew he had basically been caught according to to chairmanship. And what the chairman by that the whistleblower complaint had already been filed. The fact of its existence had already been told to the hill so congressman Schiff knew about it and was not was was informing the American public public by that point. The president knew that people had figured out what he was doing and he hadn't sent it to try to clean up after himself and tell us on the no quid pro quo but even when he did that he's still told him. I want these investigations done. How closely did this testimony today tie this whole issue of asking Ukraine to have investigations? Sounds that would have helped Mr trump politically. How how close does it tie it to actually his instructions and him being directly involved in it? I think it puts it right in his lap. Look we we already basically knew from the beginning of this investigation that the president was directly involved. Because the minute they released that that partial transcript you had the president and his own words kind of laying out the most damning Possible affects them directly demand investigation not even into Barista of Ukrainian company but into into Joe Biden himself so the president that already in his own words In a document released by the White House was put right in the center of the scandal. And today you had Gordon and making clear that it was the president through through Rudy Giuliani. Who was saying there? You know for the Ukrainians to get this meeting at the White House. They have to open these investigations. Now Gordon saw wasn't able to directly testified that the the president told him they won't get their aid. They won't get this four hundred million dollars in. Let's open the investigation. But he laid out a pre circumstantial case that by the by by September timber. It was clear to him. But that wasn't the case that because of the reason the president withholding that aid is he wanted those investigations plots but this is Republicans. Keep coming back because it is if anything circumstantial and there is no smoking gun because they point out the aid did flow to Ukraine and there were no investigations. Well but the problem with that is it ignored all of the rest of the evidence. The aid is only one piece of the puzzle. The demand for an investigation into the president's political opponents is in itself misconduct. This conduct is in itself arguably impeachable offense. There's another quid pro quo. That basically is no longer disputed the fact that the president said you cannot get this meeting at the White House unless you open an investigation. The only piece of the puzzle that still left is circumstantial is withholding evade. And you. Now Have Gordon coming in saying it was pretty clear to him. He's the person more than anyone else. It was pretty clear him. So yes that pieces circumstantial. But if they're gonNA hang their defense on that they have to ignore every other fact that can be incredibly credibly damning for the president's action so if this did move the dial and and this is this is how many people are saying. This was absolutely crucial. What happened today with? Listen Bastiat Sunland but does it do you see any more. Republicans being persuaded. UC anymore the public being persuaded. It's very hard to tell. Public opinion has moved somewhat at the beginning of this crisis You know that you felt polling. You know around whether the president should be impeached moved from office. Removed from office moved from somewhere in the high thirties to around fifty percent. Where around half the country now says he should be removed from office and it's kind of sat there stubbornly for a few weeks? I think it's too early to say whether public opinion will move and that's the Republicans I think they will largely follow public opinion. they're not gonNA move Just because they think it's the right thing to do to remove the president from office. They've made pretty clear they're gonNA they're gonNA defend him until they can't anymore and so. I think the question is really will. These hearings have an impact on public opinion. And I think it's too early to answer that question all right. We'll be following this story. Matthew thank you so much thank you that was the former chief spokesperson for the US Department of Justice. Matthew Miller in Washington doc.

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