David, Coun, Mr. Birch Bayh discussed on Mr Barton Maths Podcast
So they have it. There was my interview with David died. I really hope you enjoyed that one. And God much out of as I did. I found David an absolutely fascinating guest. I'll be perfectly honest with you. I was a little bit nervous before this conversation purely because David is clearly so bright. And so well read and this subject matter, not only does it fascinate me. But it's it's full demento important is fundamentally important to our job as a teacher our jobs for those who are as parents for anyone who interacts with with with children hose, just who's it genuinely interested in in how intelligent develops. What we can do to to help kids get clever. So it was one of those conversations that are really wanted to get right? And I and I'll reflect a little bit more about the impossibly some of the mistakes made in the interview a little bit later on in these takeaways, but first off just a few kind of practical things that have been pondering since spoke to David the first is an we come back to this every now and again on the podcast just out flipping art is to move schools and annoyed of people talk about this people always talk about the father's heart starting off as an end key tea or even a student teacher. But it's very hard. When you're in a stop light teacher, and you feel uncomfortable. And you've got you routines, and the kids know, you all this kind of stuff, and you move school, and every reputa- all the reputation, you built up everything that came before is just it just crumbles crumbles to the ground. Nobody knows who you are. And if like me you moved into quite a challenging school. It could be really really difficult. So what? Coun- we do to to help. Well, I was thinking hard about this. And this is something I've been looking to observe in in my own school of Las fuse. Whenever new teachers joined what really helps is if your teacher in a school. And a new member of staff comes in maybe comes into the mass department or your English department, or whatever it is. I think it can be really helpful to talk to the kids about not teacher. And I it sounds that stupid this, but just to drop their naming conversations like Mr. Birch Bayh a teacher joined the school at Lasca, please. And Mr. Burke's into forty oh, Mr Bush those or or just to be seen. It sounds pathetic would just seen out and about with teacher break or at lunchtime in the corridor or something like that. What that does? I think anyway, is it shows the kids that that teacher belongs that that the new teacher is part of the fabric that they've got allies that one of the teachers now once they see that particularly if if. The scene with a well established teacher, then it just helps integration a bit more as opposed to what I see sometimes. And I've been I've been the victim of this. Sometimes when you go in that, and you feel very isolated yourself, and you feel about isolated from the staff, but you're also then isolated from from the kids, and you feel about a loner a bit of an outsider, and it can just make that transition even more difficult than than inevitably is going to be anyway. So I guess my thing to take away from this is the case hard enough being that new teacher myself and having experienced that are really know it is so that if I now see a new teacher join our school or join on departments or something like that. Or even if their student teacher, schools direct or something like that. If I can not only make them feel poverty palm. But make explicit make visual. So all the all the students see them as part of the team that I think he can really help ease that transition. He can make them seem. An established member of the team in the student size, which is really important to ease that Trump saga transition. So I was one of the biggest one that I've taken away from both David's book, and our conversation was this on peer groups. Now, whenever you say peer groups have a big influence. I mean that that's pretty obvious. But the number fifty percents the p groups can count the fifty percent of differences in IQ that surprised me it was it was that high. And again, it got me thinking, what was the takeaway that we'll can individual teachers themselves do about this. Well, I guess the most important thing is that they can create a culture within their own classrooms where learning and success of things to be celebrated is a case of trying to create that as the social norm because once that social norms established that that that being successful asking questions not being fearful of making mistakes doing home. Homework being proud when you achieve things if that can be the social norm that's incredibly influential on on on students 'cause students just like don't want to want to be accepted won't do is quite hard to be to be seen as different you want to kinda follow the group. And if the group is following this particular positive path, then it can be kind of self fulfilling prophecy that things just get battered bathroom batter. But we've all been in classes where that's not the case. And I've certainly told any many classes where you've got kind of disruptive groups of students and now have in kind of listen to David in readies book and try to dig that deep Princess, I'm thinking that that that those kind of groups need to be picked up on quickly and separated to try and stop it being a self affiliate prophecy the other way where he kind of feed off each other students were I'm not doing any work. I'm messing around will neither Milo, blah, blah, blah, blah, and guess worse and worse and worse and worse. So I think. Kind of not been not kind of settling on a seats in plan. If it turns out that there's a couple of groups who is just not working for. I'm being quite proactive and moving things around and could be something practical that teaches can do and also on that same thing. These quite common practice in a lot of schools there. If there's a particularly disruptive child in a class say to disruptive kids in a class to move one of those kids into another class. I'm not gonna work. It can work will both ways really it can work if the social norm in the class at the child's be moved into is strong enough, and positively of the child actually then adheres to that social they they start to realize. Okay. This is the way things are in this class. Best thought changing my mind cause otherwise going to be an outcast. But I've also seen it work. The other way round whether character is strong in off and populate often influential enough that they changed the social norm themselves and things start going the wrong way. So it's. There's no easy answer to this. But it's really made me appreciate the power and importance and significance of peer groups on children's learning. And it's something that I'm just going to be on the lookout for. And there's no harm fuss rule with how best to deal with it. But I can't just let it subtly cont. Let these kind of negative pig groups on the one hand kind of makes situations worse for each other. And at the same time, I want to harness the power of the positive pig. Route relationships to translate these positive social norms. It's going to be best for everyone. And the third thing. I just wanted to talk about briefly was this this concept of powerful knowledge on a mentioned this in the podcast that I'm going to try and think how this applies to to Mufamadi my own subject. Now in his David explains. The powerful knowledge is I'm going to quote here that which provides reliable explanations and a sound basis for making judgments about the world beyond the narrow limits of experiences now as they. Authenticated and in his INSEE in the conversation and also in he's book, you can kind of see how it's going to be the case for subjects like English and history. There was some knowledge. That's this going to teach kids about the world around the beyond the limits of that classroom experience, but what he starting mathematics, and we have a little bit of disagreements on the kind of why you do things and so on and so forth. I've been thinking long and hard about this for me. And the co gotta my to this is not a definitive answer by any stretch immagination. But for me, powerful -nology mathematics is is all about connections. I think maths is bad for students and students have a negative impression of mathematics when it seen as low to disconnect. Two chunks, right? Will learn in this this week will infractions this week next week will learn in Pythagoras next week. We're learning those just load a separate things for me powerful. -nology math is seeing how all the different areas of mouths connect together. How fractions connected decimals? Connect to percentages when negative numbers come into play. How connected to everything? So Matty, no longer seen as isolated topics. Now, a really simple way to do. This is just to harness the power into leaving or as Anna Nicole's it into weaving. So always look for petunias east and bring these high value topics like fractions decimals percents, she is negative algebra into all the topics that we stood. So these kids are always seeing the link always seeing that the thing that they learned last year or three years ago five years ago, it's coming back again because it's all connected Massey's, one wonderful connected subject together. So that's one way to harness interweaving, not needs Cafo curriculum, plumbing, Catholic Catholic scheme of work ordering to make sure that there's opportunities for this interweaving and also kaffa plumbing to make sure that those opportunities are taking a vantage off the topics answer in isolation that wants to basics of the topic of taught then these other high. Volley topics are woven in there. But also this ways to make these connections, and and harnessed this powerful knowledge and in other ways, so I'm going to be reflecting on this in my interview with with Alex quickly, which I've already recorded, but I'm going to be releasing next. But one podcast, and I'm going to be talking there about a new thing. I do when I'm introducing a topic. A new way to help students make connections a million. This is a bit of a teaser because I want you to listen to that episode because again is is is one of my favorite conversations. But I think by making these connections by showing students where things fit into the big picture of mathematics is that of isolated topics. That's when the knowledge that we give kids become powerful. Again. Just just my view on that one. And knew the thing I thought about you can see Hyde lots think about all this conversation is this struggle and failure. I find it fascinating. That David says that this has been a bit of a kind of failure. A culture developing 'em in teaching. That's something that I've certainly felt enough. I've spoken about at numerous workshops that I've been looking to to be invited to speak out. And you've got to get the culture right of calls. It a culture of era within the classroom where kids all afraid to admit mistakes bought for me. There's a fine line. You don't want kids struggling too much. If if everything's a struggle if the permanently asked to be outside of that conference own if the permanently finding things difficult, then you need some strong character to be willing to keep assistant in the face of concent-, struggling constant failure. And so for me that struggle has to come alongside success. I think kids are only willing to struggle. This is just just my view only willing to struggle on only willing to kind of put up with failure. If firstly they've tasted success in the past. And Secondly, they think that struggling failure is going to lead to more success in the future. After. So they've got to experience success and have the viewpoint that they can experience success again in the future. And also just going back to what dog lamb of spo- as talks about with this culture of error. One thing I've started doing now is making sure actually script Soma interactions, and they sounds a bit ridiculous. But particularly when a child's made a mistake, and I want to actually use that mistake and share it with the rest of the class because I'm pretty sure that if we don't get this tackled now, it could be a problem that just grows and grows and grows. I've got to be really careful in my interactions. Both with that students who's made the mistake. I'm also with the with the whole class themselves. So with that student, I'm going to say to them, Jim. And if I just borrow your work and show it to the rest of the class. And if they say to me, I've made a mistake. I'm going to be honest. I'm gonna say, yeah, you off and I'm not going to say, but I'm so pleased. You've made a mistake sounds quite patronizing. And that's not true. I'm not pleased that they got it wrong. Wrong. That's the wrong message. What I'm pleased about is. That thou willing to allow me to use the mistake that they've made to help them out on the rest of the class out. Saw make sure script my interactions in that way. Thank you so much Josh for allowing me to to share the mistake you've made with everybody because I'll tell you why you made it in this instance. But I reckon there's at least four or five other people don't make same thing if we can get a soil down. Now, it's going to be to the benefit of everybody song, really careful in the language that I use an will change with different kids in different classes. But I think a lot of time gets spent less employing thinking about the resources we use the questions that we ask the examples. All those things a fundamentally important bull. Certainly one thing I've not spending time thinking about over the years is the language that I use. And that's something that I think is fundamentally important something I'm going to be reflected on and working hard wrong over the. Weeks months and years. Finally, finally, we returned to load theory. And he's one of those things it's been a recurring theme in this podcast. Then we've got kind of extreme views on this. She get Greg Ashman who's a massive cognitive load theory advocates and listen to my to tease with Greg. If you wanna hear more about that. And then also we had Dr Jala Williams on recently. He's not quite a Musset cognitive load theory advocates fascinating to hear different viewpoints on this book just to take the slightly different. Tune on. I started thinking about contemplate theory and other aspects of my life outside of education. So, and I mentioned that I'm currently do not NATO classes me, and my wife, and I'm experiencing extreme cognitive overload trying to figure out to change not peace and use bottles and all this kind of soften all things after a member about safe sleeping positions for babies and all this kind of stuff. But also I've been thinking about comedy of load theory in terms of my interview in tecnique. I need to get better. At interview quite annoyed with myself at a couple of points, in my view with David and three the key point of the interview is was was trying to figure out what influences I q, and I was fascinated to to try to get to the bottom of parental influence. This is P group influence, but if you listen back to it, I was tempted to flip and try and call this hour edited to maybe sound bit batter kind of bundle three or four questions into one. I asked David to reflect onto quotes than us then everything closely big question about how schools can harness the power of PA groups without I dig into what effect pig reaps. Have why parents have no effect beyond the certain age and all this kind of stuff. So it's all well and good using cognitive load theory when I'm teaching, but I need to start using it a bit more in terms of incident and stuff. So I'm making a pledge hero making this public. So you can listen out C is Lee stick to this. I'm gonna try an atom is my question. Atomised interview, I'm going to try and break questions down into into smaller kind of Aries. So that the personal interview and can focus on that one area before then build it up to the next and build it up to the next Bill tonight's, although is it's too much from the gas. It's too much for the listener and sold and so forth so annoyed about myself about but I'm going to turn into a positive. I'm going to try and loom from it. Anyway, I think off takeaways Fennell flipping sorry for banging on so much. There was the so much high to think about as older amaze me to do is offer a few. Thank you. So I thank you to podcast dot com for the lovely jazzy music throughout the show. I'm massive Funke's to David died out. Absolutely move talking to David his books wonderful strongly advise, you check it out to be a link to it in the show along with all the all the things we discussed about David big three as well. On the Massey. Thank you to you, the listener keep it on tuning into these podcasts. I'm trying to brunch outside of my comfort zone with with interview in English, teachers and primary school teachers and silence. Oh, fourth. I hope you enjoy these kind of episodes where we go a bit difference. And then of course, I have to bring it back in off some months teaches on gossamer absolutely fascinating guests lined up over the next few weeks. And if you joy these podcasts do me to favors that'd be amazing one leave a quick review or rating or wherever you get your podcast from. And it just helps more people find these shows. And Secondly, if you've got a colleague doesn't listen to this podcast. I mean, firstly what are you doing hanging around with them? Secondly, maybe to get them on board. Why don't suggest one of you favorite episodes? It. Maybe this one with David died maybe Dylan William and maybe Dr Helen Williams. It may be daisy Christodoulou could be Chris bowl to pick a favorite episode and recommend that they listen to it. It might just get them on board. Anyway, I'm gonna show sold. Now. Thanks so much for listening. You take care of yourselves of buying.