South Africa, BBC, Nigeria discussed on BBC World Service


High winds in eastern Australia are expected to create more extreme conditions for firefighters tackling more than a hundred bush fires police suspect that some of the blazes were started deliberately. yes the I. has disclosed the name of a Saudi official allegedly linked to the September eleventh attacks the information was supplied private the to a lawyer representing victims' families who is suing the Saudi government Saudi Arabia has always denied any connection with the hijackers. the Supreme Court in Peru has how of the period of pre trial detention imposed on the opposition needed Keiko Fujimori who is facing corruption charges the ruling paves the way for her release in April next year. New Zealand is planning a further tightening of his candles six months after the Christ Church mosque shootings a new gun register will track every firearm and they'll be stiffer penalties for people who illegally trade weapons. police said Heathrow airport in London of arrested two men who they suspect we're trying to fly a drone into the air field one group of climate activists has been threatening action to disrupt flights planes landing and taking off without the lace BBC news. you're listening to the real story from the BBC world service with me Judy market this week we're looking at the recent outbreak of violence in South Africa claims that foreign workers are being targeted him what some according as xenophobic attacks on the way south Africa's neighbors have reacted with me throughout professor Lawrence Landau's senior researcher at the African center for migration and society I'm from the Mojave executive director of the center for the study of violence and reconciliation we're actually P. late south African journalist and Edison all three of them are in Johannesburg here in London Jason Robinson senior African analyst at the research organization Oxford analytica earlier in the program we discussed the possible causes of the violence coming up more on the way other countries have reacted to specially Nigeria and reaction to recent events from a spokesman for the African National Congress so let's look at that diplomatic fallout first of all I'm. Lauren Landau would to you about relations between South Africa and Nigeria and how they have played out in recent times and therefore inform what's happening now what's your reading of that well I think that there has been a as Russian was saying before a kind of global competition between the two you know they've been vying for who is the biggest economy in in Africa although I think when you look at at the basis of ever is very clearly the most diversified and and perhaps the most imperialist of the of the economies and I think it's that kind of expansion is to gender this really at stake here after the violence happens in twenty fifteen Niger wall up to one of the south African cell phone companies empty and with something close to a billion dollar fine basically as punishment and what you're seeing in in Nigeria in Congo in Tanzania is local businesses using this as a lever against south African business to say look why would we allow these people into our country when they treat us so badly way back in their own home country and I think this is as the Nigeria being so big it means more coming from them but I think it's going to hurt South Africa not just economically but politically in terms of its soft power across the continent but these are countries that would have been so supportive of the majority black population in South Africa during the apartheid era. yeah I mean these are countries that that supported South Africa these are countries I think that embraced South Africa after nineteen ninety four and at least initially welcome south African investment as part of global trade is part of expanding opportunities for everyone but what we've seen recently not just in the last few weeks but over the last few years is the recognition that South Africa doesn't play fair that's out Africa doesn't welcome six continental initiatives he's really in it for itself and this sort of plays into that narrative uncomfortable Huffy that's quite a big shift of of thinking isn't it among south Africa's neighbors. yeah look I think the is the a question that just has to be asked in Africa around the images of the elite. from even what Lorena seeing most of this what is inside after college is is what's happening in Algeria is mainly a the the the political elite or the business elite fighting Vale wars with the people on the ground being the ones that get affected because at the end of the day is the question that has been asking who benefits from the xenophobia but most importantly will actually sofas the people who suffers the most of the people on the ground I mean as they say that in the elephants fight is the grass that suffers even what's happening in as Lawrence is in Nigeria is mainly business trying to advance they or needs and a in in the name of what is happening so that that's interesting I mean you know people listening will think back to when Nelson Mandela was elected in nineteen ninety four which represents an enormous change in the way that country looked to the outside world not any to those living in South Africa but what your hinting at is that while that was a huge change actually now quite a loss of what was there before. you still there. yeah I mean interestingly enough the Mandela himself said I have not yet giving you freedom but of giving you the freedom to be free it was just the beginning of freedom there was a lot of work that still needed to happen in terms of social economic transformation which we didn't do sufficient enough and in Africa generally I don't think there's been sufficient questioning of elitism in Africa and those that have been power and how they have peach we take the very same things that were done by they'll process welcome to you there Ashley and Jason in a moment all on that and the other reaction to this being close to South Africa but his specific reaction this is from hot FM it's a Zambian radio station that has banned south African music as a result of these recent attacks at Gary my son it was its programs manager as a registration we thought why not switch off also African music for my playlist and do a statement which is seven all social media platform our retaliation is not like attack attack we have a lot of the evidence yet the country was to embrace them was to around with them and everything else is just that we stayed we're going to pull your music and until such a time where we feel okay our friends brothers and sisters sort of like come down we're coming to terms will push back this African music onto our airwaves Gary Massana in Zambia up the recipe that is the reaction from south Africa's neighbors look different to you this time. well there's been I think it's seven to everyone there is absolutely a feeling of of people in a kind of drawing a line this time round I I think previously perhaps to a able to maybe bluff our way through it and this time they his attitudes have certainly hard and I think when you see high profile musicians arguing from from different countries you had Burna boy A. K. A. who's about friggin rapper I'm in a heated argument about the attacks and especially those against Nigerian foreign nationals because as much as we have an economic competition but not you know we also have a music competition and so that one's a door and your music and vice versa so it when it's not to touch that many parts of our relationship you know that we're in trouble and just again and activity for me I'm involved in like networks off a young entrepreneurs across the continent and it's a lot of sense of betrayal so images taken a huge knock and as Lauren referenced earlier we do have a bit of an imperialist kind of Sloan's to our image anyway we often refer to joking is the US off of of the continent in terms of how we always talk to own interests and can be quite arrogant so this is really not helping things for that but but again going back to what we were saying a moment ago who the reaction a few years ago when similar violence took place was different so I wonder whether the patience of the neighbors has somehow run out so I think when it happened almost ten years ago for the first time in two thousand and eight we will all kind of maybe coasting along still on that and the promise of South Africa being some kind of miracle nation and I think ten years later they are younger angry of people across the continent and it and in South Africa as you know not as willing to put up with with the sort of thing Joyce let me bring you in on that this idea that you know twenty five years own since Nelson Mandela became president clearly there has been an enormous amount of progress but there is still a great deal more progress to make and that people are beginning to feel differently about the country when they leave that and a looking upon it differently when they are outside said Africa as an outline. it can be kind of sees itself is quite exceptional which can also it infuriates its neighbors and others on the continent seen as arrogant it's interesting I think there's comparable populism's I play both in Nigeria and South Africa because it's been about five thousand jobs lost in like a state as a result of these rights and also it's a symptom similar to said Africa of young unemployed people who are getting incredibly frustrated at the lack of job opportunities and the lack of progress and we're seeing the the impact of state capture in the hollowing out of institutions farm policy suffered as well and what what a specific at negative approaches we saw we sat by sheer at the Sudanese leader we saw the. wants to leave the international criminal course and we saw some decisions when it was on the UN security council things like this where that kind of Mandela sheen kind of went away and was seen as self interest I think xenophobia it while it's on the international agenda now is definitely on the domestic agenda but the big worry is that dish. it won't be tackled anytime soon and every time these attacks stars the the concern is is it going to flare up and spread like it did in two thousand eighteen thousand fifteen and the issue of leadership has been found wanting a loss in the past the past eighteen months let me bring another voice in on this because listing to it certainly the last part about conversation is said to coach a liquidity and national spokesman for the governing a and C. in South Africa and he joins us on the line a Dakota liquidity welcome to the program thank you for coming on no thank you very much and to all the list not settle I want to ask you first about how South Africa looks as a result of this group of Nigerians wanting to leave your country some of whom have now arrived back in late goals from a purely image point of view the signal that sends to the rest of the world it doesn't look good does it is the agency. we condemn the recent developments in sort of in the strongest terms. what ukulele done fortunately at total for attacks on foreign nationals in budget love from the continent is Dale C. will not want to start. I don't but I see that some of the best most foreign nationals it'll be law country. I'm rich..

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