Julie Kretz, Julie, America discussed on Leadership and Loyalty


To the delicious conversation here on legion loyalty with my guest Julie kretz. Her latest book is lead like an ally a journey through corporate America with strategies to facilitate inclusion. Julie has developed inclusive workshops. Workshop culture, workplace cultures through allyship across gender, race and other dimensions of diversity. She is a TEDx speaker and she is an inclusive leadership trainer and an executive coach. And before we were in part one, we talked about really confronting what those three things are. What is diversity? What is inclusion? What is allyship? We talked about that. We talked about the where we get stuck. And we talked about confronting ego and how you want to be oftentimes you really want to be an inclusive leader just don't know how to be it. And we also talked about confronting that desire to hide from feeling stupid by admitting that you need to know something. So we're pretty deep down. We met some really great stuff, and I hope that you did catch part one in part two here. I want to address some of the unconscious bias. Because I think this is an important point. I know it's something you speak a lot about Julie. So as part of that unconscious bias, we ask you to look into that more detailed in a moment. But one of the pushbacks that you and I talked about in a previous conversation, that we've all heard around diversity is, is that leaders often claim that it means lowering the standard somehow. Why can't we just hire on merit is one of the things that I know I've heard it a lot, and I'm sure I've heard it much less than you have. So talk to us about that. Oh, I know, I can't instinctively roll my eyes when I hear this statement. I understand. It's actually scenario. We use in our unconscious bias training. But yeah, I mean, what you're saying is it's one of these biased patterns of thought. If we're not careful to break these things down. So the way our brain works, our brain is very much a category based system. So we see somebody, a lot of times, we want to place them into a category, for example, male female, or brown, black, white, whatever it is. We want to put them in that category. And our brain if we're not careful when we place some of that category can make assumptions about that person based on previous people, we've encountered that fit that category. Part of this is for a brain survival. We got to make tough decisions. You know, we used to be chased by saber toothed tigers. That was really helpful when you had to assess trust with somebody instantly. Today's world, not so much, not so relevant. So with unconscious bias, it's really recognizing where my biases might be. And then slowing your brain down a little bit before it instinctively makes that assumption based decision that could result in problematic behavior. We just want to slow it down and just ask ourselves a couple reflection questions. How do I know that's true? Based on what information, hey, is there more to the story than what meets the eye? Pages those types of reflection questions. So back to the example you gave, before we assume diverse talent somehow is subpar, we're not meeting the same standards. Maybe we should ask ourselves that question. Well, how do I know that that person doesn't meet the standards? Or what assumption could I be making here that may not be accurate? And often times we assume the majority group, which majority group, another term from the dictionary, is generally speaking the people that hold the most power and privilege in a given society. Well, here in North America, that is generally white. This gender males. Surprise, right? 80% or so of leadership roles fulfill that is that demographic. So what you don't know is by being in that majority group because you're so represented, especially the leadership ranks, people might unfairly give you a leg up or make assumptions about you that you're perfectly capable as a leader because you look like the profile of leadership and my organization or what I've been accustomed to. Conversely, a woman, a person of color, someone that disability is seeing them in a leadership role you're going to be like, double take. Great. I don't see that very often. I might make the assumption that somehow they're not as equipped in that role. Not based on actual data, not based on actual qualifications, but just because my brain hasn't seen that enough before to normalize it. This is the real chicken and egg problem we have with diversities. We need representation at the top at the same time. It's hard to see what you haven't seen before. And so we have to be really intentional when we're hiring and when we're recruiting and making promotion decisions that we're getting diverse slates and we always hire for the best talent. We always promote the best talent, but if we could be more intentional making sure to diversify those candidate pools on the front end, best practices show that's going to eliminate some of the bias that can creep up in the process. Well, there was a really great experiment you probably know this even better than I do. A really great experiment that was done. I can't even remember what it was. And the experiment was done with people applying for jobs. And the people who applied for jobs that were equally qualified, but some of those people have black names, you know, like Tyrone or whatever, you know, typical, you know, biased names, right? So the very black names. And that they didn't get the interviews with equal qualifications to the breads and the jets. So the breads and chads were getting more integers. So they did the thing again with a new group, and they changed all the givens and all those names that, you know, oomph fufu or whatever it might be, what name was more traditionally black? And they changed it to Susan and John and you know, they just changed them. And guess what? The same people got the interviews. But what was more fascinating was the response of the interviewer being surprised at this very white name. Right? So I had a Chinese friend years ago. Her name was Julie Davies. And I remember this, this was the early 90s and she goes, she loves having a name because her dad is white and a mom is Chinese. So she's Julie Davies, but she looks very Chinese. And she goes, I love walking in and just watching their faces. Because, you know, because they just don't know. They just don't know. And so that's part of the challenge is what are you carrying around in your coconut that says this person is that? And how do we, how do we get people to confront that Julie? I mean, I.

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