Talks base dot com this episode. Like many others in this podcast has a lot of characters a lot of complex layers and i wonder if you could before we get into some of the specifics of the episode. Give us the sort of the elevator speech version of where we are. thus far. We know the corey. Kaufman has disappeared. That was sometime in late. March of twenty twelve and in this episode the authorities Come into contact with frank carson. But if you could just remind us of sort of how we got to this point in their investigation so at this point in the story authorities are beginning to take a hard look at frank carson. As a suspect in the disappearance and possible death of cory kaufman. They believe that Carson in his frustration with thieves became homicide enraged and Enlisted some local men to visit vigilante justice on corey kaufman and this is the episode in which we see them closing in on carson and we see carson's reaction which is not to cooperate with their investigation. He does not trust them. He knows some of these cops from way back. He does not trust them and does not believe that their intentions are good or that their investigation is going to be fair so they show up at his office in two thousand twelve and they want to ask him questions and he tells them many many times to put it in writing. That exchange is Quite fascinating and it ends with the cops leaving at some point. They do provide written questions through out. You're not gonna answering. Yeah out up. You're not going to talk to me. I know you don't. can i tell you here. Also arrest for trespassing. Franken both under arrest ever. I won't because is left. Get out so we can lock the door lock. I'm gonna lock the door. I tell you something. No i don't wanna hear anything. I'm tired of your abuse. Threats persons not gonna go. You're you're going to take. It's not going to go. You're tank but we're going to. The police are going to be. I'm happy to tell them. That's fine when the door is not going to let go my door. It's not gonna work this time mr person. You're on your investigation. We like to talk to you. What did you make of that. That whole set piece that leads to its own complicated tango frank. His wife and the members of law enforcement all having conversations at the same time and really quickly. Here's the reaction to the incident. I'm talking about from carson's wife georgia and her friend mary martinez after closing nevertheless. Even we invited them to leave. They should've gone then. We're waiting for frank to flip out when they do. They're poking the bear. Yeah and finger on the phone and made the nine one one call. Yeah i mean the. Da's office characterizes carson's behavior during that one visit as a reflection of consciousness of guilt because he doesn't want to cooperate with them because he asked for a warrant they say. Why does he do this. Why not just cooperate of course if you're a defense attorney and you don't trust the people who are coming to interrogate you. It seems to me as predictable as anything that the defense attorney would ask for a warrant and would not cooperate. I don't know why they would have really expected anything else from carson. But they did point to this piece of evidence as an example of carson's volatility. He does yell. He does scream. He calls nine one one. They drop a long list of questions. He initially says. Put your questions in writing. And answer them. I think he develops the impression that he has nothing to gain by cooperating with authorities in this investigation that their minds are made up and that anything he tells them will somehow be hammered into Into the theory that they're proving you know. I wondered when i listened to The second part of that where frank calls nine one one. It seemed to me. I picked up a little bit on his Theatricality when he's on the line with the nine one one dispatcher. Giving a play by play as to what these authorities were doing Now he's got the gun. I see has gone and it it. It felt like he was almost playing a little bit to the crowd. There or two cameras or or whoever. I wonder if it struck you that way. Yeah i mean he was a showman and this this does go to his His talent for theatricality and Hyperbole you also wonder how much extra peril he might have. Been inviting if The nine one one dispatcher had Interpreted this to mean. It was saying armed robbery or something. So yeah he's he's kind of playing with fire there but he's also not out of control. It's an anger. It's a rage that you're hearing from them but it seems to me a controlled a modulated sort of rage that is strategic as well did it strike you. That lay steve. Yeah i mean at one point you think he's about to flip out and really do something and then he says i'll conduct a citizens arrest. Okay that seemed like a fairly measured Response by someone who is facing people with guns in his office. I also in this episode. We also hear from other people as well. A big mike cooley. Who is a really important character in this entire saga and we hear mike Interviewed by authorities and professes his deep fondness for for corey kaufman. The victim and. I wonder if you could tell us more about my cooley. And what happens when the police learn about him get interested in him and Come to talk to him. We need to know the truth mike. It's not fair to this kid. You say you love like a son then me tell you something okay. By knew who killed their kid. They wouldn't be walking right now. I'm a bit with mike buck in heart high. Mike i appreciate all right. I really do your sentiment for. him is very heartwarming. I i mean that. Okay because if i had somebody who i cared about like a son i would feel the same way. You're protecting the guys that put corey in the grave. Because you're scared but the gigs up. All right we can't help you all right. We can't help you at all unless you're willing to help yourself out. Yes oh my cooley. Lives right next door to carson's lot in turlock and there was evidence that carson was frustrated with the thieves who are stealing from his lot. He would report Over the years that vintage signs had been stolen they would just vanish from his lot and reappear. At an antique store people would take wheels from his lot tools antique frying pans collectible automobile manuals. Found that the locks had been broken off some of the containers on a lot and at one point Police officer even finds carson according to a report in his toyota pickup truck. Down the block from his lot. He's crouched in the driver's seat as if to hide any explains that he's watching his property to the investigators to the da's office. This establishes that. He's taking the law into his own hands by doing active surveillance on his property. Michael cooley who is admittedly a former member of the aryan brotherhood. Prison gang. Who we meet in this episode..