W. Harvey, Ralph Governor Northam discussed on Jeff Katz
News radio W. Harvey eight it is a Thursday afternoon and I will tell you that we will be addressing the comments from wreck it Ralph governor Northam had a whole bunch of stuff to say today and ended can and he's he doesn't think those rules apply to him the same way they apply to you or they applied in the fair is enough I I had the opportunity to read a great piece the other day in the hill and that was about the F. B. I. N. it is entitled how the F. B. I.'s intelligence experiment went wrong and as I was reaching out to the gentleman who wrote it another one of his pieces also was published and it talked about the FBI being one of I think just one of the few law enforcement agencies in America that doesn't actually record their interviews this this was at the heart of the general Michael Flynn matter right I mean if you have this this document this three oh two just being re written by other people why wouldn't you just go to the tape so I wanted to get Jim Casey on about both of these items and I'm thrilled to say that he's here is a retired up special agent in charge for the FBI Jim thank you for being here Hey thanks for having just good to be here yes Jim can you could start with this intelligence experiment that that went wrong as you describe it most of us we think of the F. B. I. and we think okay world's best investigative agency they go out they solve crimes that's what they do but there is a little bit more to this story yes so I think the origin of the intelligence experiment I call it it's it's it's not in an entire figure I think that we can see in this case the crossfire hurricane item my opinion is is been misused let's go back to nine eleven if you recall there were a number of dots that were not connected there was the missile we incident in Minneapolis is the Phoenix memo there were all these other threads of intelligence that were out there that the FBI didn't put together before the plot that you took down the World Trade Center killed three thousand Americans and so rapidly when that happened director Miller who had been in the job for seven days rightly observed in my opinion yes yeah I need to be more intelligence driven and what he meant by that and what I think the the procedures and processes that were put in a place where they we would use intelligence to guide our investigations and that you know facts would still matter that you know criminal investigations and the like we're still important but they needed to be guided by in an augmented by intelligence that was out there to better connect dots per threats and so what I think we saw happen with crossfire hurricane the the investigation into whether collusion with the trump campaign was that we were using intelligence techniques apparently and then turning them around and and targeting American citizens with them and I don't think that was the you know quite the rationale behind using intelligence to guide investigations wasn't to turn it around and use intelligence techniques such as far as such as classified investigations and and basically target American citizens and I think that's what happened so as it stands today would you as a as a career FBI agent you're retired special agent in charge would you look at the F. B. I. in se it is an investigative agency or it is an intelligence agency it's both and in fact one of the interesting dynamics right after nine eleven was there was a series called I was in DC around that time I went back to headquarters for days after nine eleven there was a serious call within in the best way to break up the bureau that we needed to have you know kind of the MI five model they called it you know we're most major western democracies have both an internal service that does law enforcement a separate internal services gun intelligence and what I think director Miller was very successful I was saying that we can do both and here's why we need to do both one of those western countries we have a constitution and the bill of rights which looks much different than those other countries even though their democracies and secondly we have with those other intelligence services one and that's the ability to use criminal tools you know to go after intelligence targets and I can be very helpful to that's that's the whole idea and so I think by instituting intelligence and bringing intelligence into the operations of the FBI more than they were they've always been there a little bit we've been you know counter espionage and counter intelligence agency since you know the very beginning right I Jim Casey is joining us the gym is is well I can say this right you're you're proud son of Regina has a go down bachelor's degree master's degree all this other stuff police officer in Arlington you can you have one or two connections to the Old Dominion I was born there raised there went to college there proudly served in the Arlington PD for number years before I became an FBI agent yeah yes so what weight when you look at the F. B. I. A.'s advancement procedures the stakes is it is easy it's the proper function it seems to me that there are some guys perhaps today long after you are retired but but there will be guys today saying yes I'm going to be a B. I. but I'm really I want to focus in that intelligence section other folks looking at the the traditional investigation should there be some sort of mandated cross pollination there is no convincing bring that up and in fact again after nine eleven a lot of this took place after nine eleven the the intelligence component became much more professional eyes to cadre of intelligence analysts that came on board after nine eleven we're real intelligence analysts that had disciplines in area studies and you know doing analysis for either the military other agencies or yeah again with a specialist in a certain area and so they actually go to Quantico in there and they're seated in the classroom right next to FBI agents were training to become agents and you know there's a lot of cases that are worked together there's a lot of you know activities that involve both of them so the each know which part of the investigation revolves around their particular specialty I'm glad to hear that I'm glad that you can to make that clear for everyone one of the other things that I really wanted to pick your brain on Jim and I I appreciate you making time for us as we have heard so much about general Flynn in crossfire hurricane and the Peters struck writing and re writing this three oh two a lot of us now will become familiar with this three oh two but I want you to remind everybody what it is and can you answer the question why the FBI doesn't just record these conversations sure so an F. B. three or two is kind of the seminal document of an FBI agents daily work it's it's where they record investigative information usually in the form of interviews so any sort of investigation that they do whether it's a surveillance or an interview or swell source contact would be a little separate form but the bulk of the work they do is on this form FD three oh two and you know as to why interviews are not recorded as a road there was about five reasons and I can go over all five of them but you know live it is historical that's never a good reason to keep doing what you've never done right by him but as I as I sort of summarized in the article I think that one of the reasons that you know FBI agents traditionally have not recorded interviews is the bulk of their work involves talking to people interviewing people on the document in his interviews it's a little different than even a major police department and I should back up and say you know there's eighteen thousand some law enforcement agencies so yeah a lot of people have emailed me tweeted me about the article and said well you know this department they do it that way and other departments do this and that and that's all true and I get it that every department has Roper's policies and procedures I should also point out that you know a number of courts and district attorneys require the law enforcement agencies to record record interviews and so it's not even optional for them to go back to your question he you know many of the interviews FBI agents do there are never gonna be testified to the never gonna be controversy they're never going to be become an issue that they're they're just documenting their activity on a daily basis and so those hundreds and thousands of interviews that are done every day become part of a file and our written documents as opposed to two or three hour tape recordings that did exist now contrast to police department where a suspect is brought in to review some he's been arrested and brought in and for the most part they're doing a custom took a cut in custody interrogation of that individual and there's a tape recorder on a night they record the individual and many times a police officer will tell you this you know there's a discussion ahead of time it takes place they talk about what happened then they get to the important part and the officer detected was okay now yeah I went on the tape tell me that story again but that's not the way most FBI investigations work or or resolved many of them you know by the time an arrest is made all the evidence all the interviews have already been done the rest is just formality there's no further questioning after that the interviews are done in the field it's not like there's you know rooms that you would bring every person you've ever interviewed to the would you know have recording devices and such general fund a good example even if the FBI had a policy where every single interview was going to be recorded that will probably be the one exception FBI agents are gonna bring recording devices into the White House you're just not going to put a you know a tape recorder are you know the digital device on the table in front of a the national security adviser and say okay we're gonna record this so we'll need to go and tell us what happened here that's just not a likely scenario effect director call me even said in in a fairly flippant response to how this whole thing went down yes and a couple guys over so wasn't even you know an interview that the anticipated would end up being controversy over B. in a in a court situation it was just an interview and so I think the primary reason is there's so many of these interviews to take place that are just not germane to you know court presentation or anything else it would be it would be a lot of additional cumbersome work for the most amount of work that agents do which is interviewing talking to people well that's a fascinating look at it and I I I I would dare say you're going to get some additional feedback now from folks saying not by but had they somehow figured out a way to record the conversation with general Flynn we never would have been in this situation right no that's absolutely right and that happens I think you know that was the one of the first reasons I said I said there's probably five or six reasons why the FBI's traditionally not done it and I'll go back and say the policy two years after I left in twenty fourteen was sort of changed by DOJ to state that generally recordings especially if people are in custody or after arrest should be recorded it I don't believe that to be the case these days I don't think that most interviews are recorded but you know another reason that these interviews generally not recorded and I talk a little bit this in the art of about this in the article and I've seen this plan another law enforcement investigations if you record interviews you kind of got to record all of them because the one that doesn't get recorded automatically becomes defense exhibit day what you record all these other interviews why isn't the general Flynn interview recorded well because they wouldn't let us take a tape recorder into the White House you know her secret service rules white has rules things like that so we probably still be in the same situation with general Flynn interesting Jim I appreciate you being here I'm looking forward to reading more from you I remind everybody the these great pieces are at the hill dot com and I Jim I hope that day you'll do make some time for us in the future to to address some other issues I'd like to thank you so much thank you.