Listen: Joe Biden, President And President Trump discussed on NBC Meet the Press
"I saw from Ambassador Sutherland. The New Zealand respected was there's no quid pro quo. But now I hardly know the gentleman and trip. Allies are reportedly eyeing others to blame including White House. Chief of Staff Mick. Mulvaney and the president's personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani. I don't know what Rudy did. I don't don't know what he's doing over there. People in Look Rudy. That's fine with me and joining me. Now from Bowling Green Kentucky Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky who sits on the Foreign Foreign Relations Committee senator. Welcome back to meet the Presser. Thanks for having me let me start with the Kentucky results. First before we get into the the the events of later this week just your initial reactions Matt Bevin. Do you see his loss as something bigger than Matt Bevin A. Ah about the Republican Party as a whole will when you look at all the races there were six statewide races we won five out of six. Republicans won five at six. We did did lose. The governor's race where we were disappointed in it but the interesting thing is is we beat a lot of other candidates. No one expected us to so actually in many ways there was sort of a red wave in Kentucky. I think it was mostly particularly about one race and I think the teachers were very unhappy. He tried to fix the pension cross ways with the teachers and I think the teachers anchor occur came out but I think he was trying to do the right thing which is saved the pension for the teachers. But it's tough when you ask people to pay more to keep their pension in place people get unhappy. You know it's interesting. He was the only one of the candidates you talked about the rest of the of the Republican candidates. At one below below him he he decided to nationalize this race. Make get about president trump making about impeachment in hindsight. Was that a mistake. You think we know a lot of candidates do that because we have conservative voters in Kentucky who elect elect federal representatives overwhelmingly because they're socially conservative. And they do support president trump's. I don't think it's a bad strategy necessarily but I think that he had some other things to overcome. One thing was the anger of the teachers but another was some problems within the Republican base. He lost some Republican counties that other Republicans Republicans got over sixty percent so there was also a problem within his base. And that's a complicated matter but there are a lot of specific reasons and fights within the Republican Party. They may have heard him Let me move to the events that we're going to be taking place this week. I let me just simply ask you. Have you been reading the transcripts that they've been released. I've been reading the reports of the actual transplant scripts. I haven't seen it but I guess my impression so far is I think the American people want fairness and I don't think they're going going to judge fairness when they're accusing president trump of the same thing. Joe Biden did threatening aid if some kind of corruption investigated and seems like everybody both parties. These have been threatening aid if some kind of investigation either doesn't happen or is ended. And so I think really what's going to happen. It's going to say oh. They're impeaching president trump for exactly the same thing that Joe Biden. Did he threatened the aid. They didn't fire someone and supposedly the president did if they didn't investigate someone so it sounds exactly like what Joe Biden didn't if they're working in peace Joe Biden they look like hypocrites in a way for going only after president trump. And having not a word to say about what you did so you think it's perfectly appropriate for the president of the United States who have sought this quid. Pro Quo from Ukraine's government. Let's say set aside. I set aside what I just want you to know. Did the is it appropriate for the president of the United States to engaged in this. I think there's a real question whether you think the president should specifically go go after one person but there's a real question whether Joe Biden should have gone after one prosecutor. It's exactly the same scenario. Says he's a well. Let me finish and I sort of finish. There is a question about that but if it were me I wouldn't give them the aid because we don't have the money we have to actually borrow the money from China to send it to Ukraine. So I'm against the okay. Didn't think it's a mistake to do the aid so I wouldn't played any of these games but I think the American people think it's unfair to treat trumper into one standard and Joe Biden under a different standard. But is that really be. I understand trying to go back. I go back to do. Two wrongs make a right. I want to set that aside because I don't understand why that's always used as a deflection. Does that mean you think it's now okay for the president to act this way. It doesn't matter what we think of at this point if it's wrong for the no Kinda uh-huh does all approach it from a different way. Fairness is one angle and I don't think people are GonNa think this is fair but I think the second angle is this foreign aid by law can only go out to countries that are not corrupt so if you think that a country is acting in a corrupt way president can always withhold aid into the corruption is fixed. So you're going to have to get in the mind of trump and his advisors and say well. He didn't really believe that the vines were corrupt. I think he absolutely does detector tests. Do you think the Biden's were corrupt. And you think you were investigating instigating corruption and that corruption is in the law that you can't give a to a country that has corruption. So there's no way this ends up being a policy debate in a partisan debate and has nothing nothing to do with legality early gallery or impeachment. It's purely partisan way of trying to overturn the election. Do you believe there should be a distinction. Between whether the administrative people in the administration asked for a quid pro quo and whether if there and whether the president himself directed do you think there's a distinction there if there's no proof the president himself self directed it for instance. As we've seen these transcripts indicate about perhaps Mick Mulvaney was was directing. This is that distinction managed to you. I think we've gotten lost in this whole idea of quid pro quo and I think Senator Kennedy Kinda hit the nail on the head. Is that If you're not allowed to give aid to people who are corrupt upped. There's always contingencies on aid. Even even President Obama withheld aid. You know he was supposed to give lethal aid. Congress said give them three hundred million in lethal aid and he sent blankets so presidents since the beginning of time I resisted congress. And there's been this sort of back and forth jockeying over what sent but also presidents have withheld aid before for corruption corruption. So the thing is is I think it's a mistake does I oh. He withheld aid until he got what he wanted. Well if it's corruption and he believes her to be corruption he has every right to withhold aid. So I think it's a big mistake for anybody to argue. Quid pro quo. It didn't have good pro quote. I know that's what the administration's arguing I would make that argument. I would make the argument. That every every politician in Washington other than me virtually is trying to manipulate Ukraine to their purposes. Menendez trotted Murphy tried. It Biden tried at trump started. They're all doing it. They are all trying to manipulate Ukraine to get some kind of investigation either ended investigation or started investigation. Let me ask the question this way though. If if you're the average American citizen watching this should you be concerned that the President United States wanted a foreign government to help investigate a political rival. Do you understand why some people I think that. That's an UN that is basically abusing the office for political gamble to stay. I think you're right chuck but I think an equal number of people are upset upset that Hillary Clinton hired a British spy to hire Russians to get dirt called the steele dossier. So here's Hillary Clinton in the middle of a campaign hiring a foreign spy agency agency or a foreign spy. is you see you did again. You went back and say okay. There's behavior that's bad over here. There's behavior that's bad over there. The house is conditioned bad behavior. When do we put a stop to it? Says No what I'm asking for is that they be treated equally and I think the American public's going to say if you you didn't do anything to Hillary Clinton for hiring foreign spy. Why is it all of a sudden wrong? For President Trump investigates. Well what I would say. Is that people want them to be treated fairly. I'm not saying to wrongs make a right. I'm not even saying I would have done it that way. All I'm saying is is that you're going to impeach president trump and you're gonNA give Hillary Clinton a letter skate so so then I think people see that as unfair and so it becomes partisan that's why no Republicans voted for impeachment. Is there anything you could hear. That might make you are. Are you an open minded juror. Let me ask it that way I. I'm very open minded and fair minded. You not meet a person who is more fair than I am I really do you believe that justice should be colorblind. gender-blind you name it. I think justice should but you know one of our traditions about justice about finding justice is defense should be able to present resent their witnesses. So if you can't call hundred Biden and you can't call the whistle blower. That's not that's sort of a sham. That's not even really a trial so I am fair-minded but the trial has to be fair Air Senator Rand Paul Republican from Kentucky. Thank you for coming on and sharing your views sir. Much appreciate and joining me now from Stamford. Connecticut is Democratic Congressman Congressman. Jim himes who sits on the intelligence committee. Congressman hines. Welcome back to the press. Good morning check. Let me start with this. Will there be new information. The public learns it's from these public hearings on Wednesday morning. There will be new information. I suspect most of the public has not read the released transcripts. And what they're going into here is they are going to hear immensely patriotic beautifully. Articulated Articulate people telling the story of a president resident who was forget quid pro quo quid. Pro Quo is one of these things to muddy the works who extorted of vulnerable country by holding up military aid so yes they are going to hear something new and chuck. If you'll if you'll grant me one second here my head is only now D- combusting from the exchange. You had with Rand Paul. I've I've spent eleven years in public service. Defending the press and when Senator Rand Paul comes on and says that what Donald Trump did and the transcript is is there extorting a foreign government for his personal political gain. And that's exactly the same thing as Joe Biden. Exactly the same thing as what he said. As Joe Biden saying saying that this prosecutor should be released when Joe Biden is acting in consistency with American foreign policy and back then we had a whole list of things that had to be done and this was American foreign policy it was European Union policy it was IMF policy that this prosecutor needed to go when rand. I'm Paul says that that's exactly the same thing as the president of the United States saying you need to find dirt on my political opponent and with all due respect chuck when you say. We'll do the two wrongs make a right. Let's be very clear. The president of the United States demanding extorting a vulnerable country to do his political bidding to go after his opponent. Opponent has nothing to do with Joe Biden executing the foreign policy United States or Hillary Clinton who is a private citizen doing opposition research on her on her her presidential opponent. Those are radically different things. And what the president did is wrong and impeachable. Let me ask you something you just said you think the words quid pro. Quo shouldn't be used anymore. It's a lot of your own colleagues. have been using it. It's part of this debate. Do you feel as if that data were just doesn't penetrate the seriousness with what happened. Well I have two problems with quid. Pro Quo number one. When you're trying to persuade the American people of something? I think that is really pretty simple. Which is at the president acted criminally and extorted in the way of mob boss would extort somebody a vulnerable foreign country? It's probably best not to use Latin words to explain it but the other thing I object to is that this was where the Republicans went. Extortion doesn't require a you. Give me this send all give you that kind of quid pro quo. It simply requires using your muscle to get something that you don't have a right to so look and by the way. Of course the the crowning absurdity here is now that they're all pretty much admitting because ambassador. Sandra has refreshed his recollection. They're all basically glee. Admitting there was a quid pro quo. But Gosh it wasn't that bad. It was exactly the same thing as Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton. So look we gotta get off this quid pro quo thing because it's complicated.."