Listen: President Trump, Ukraine, Alinsky Alinsky discussed on The Lawfare Podcast
"Knew that Tebessa Volcker was prepping Ukrainians for the phone call earlier on that is in at a meeting in Toronto. On July second Mr Volk Besser Volcker added conversation with Prisons Zain's Linski and had indicated in a phone call that he at that time was going to talk Mr Dolinsky presence Alinsky Alinsky through the steps that need to be taken in order to get to the phone call understood and testified earlier that the security assistance had already been frozen to your knowledge at least by July eighteen. Is that right. That's correct so that was just a week earlier than this. That's correct so just so we're clear ambassador Taylor before this July twenty fifth call. President trump had frozen the security assistance that Ukraine needed and the White House meeting was conditioned on Ukraine initiating this investigation and that had been relayed to the Ukrainians. Is that an accurate state to play at this time. That's an accurate data. Play I at that. Point had no indication that any discussion of the security the assistance being subject to condition conditioned on investigations had taken place. But you understood that the White House meeting. Let's correct all right. Let's move ahead to this July twenty fifth call and between the president's now am I correct that neither of you were on this call. Is that right. Mr Can't that's correct and you were neither as well so you both read it. After it was released publicly at the end of September. Yes yes I want to spend just a little time reading the transcript as we've been encouraged to do and I want to particularly no four excerpts some of the transcripts one that relates to the security assistance. We've been talking about another. That discusses a favor that president trump asked of presidents Alinsky a third where president trump asks the Ukrainian president to investigate his political opponent former vice president Biden and then a final one on where the Ukrainian president directly links the desired White House visit to the political investigations. That president trump wanted. So let's look at the first first excerpts which is near the beginning of the call when President Leninsky discusses the military aid the US provides to Ukraine. He says I I would also like to thank you for your great support. In the area of defense we are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps. Specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelin Boland's from the United States for defense purposes. Now at the time of this phone call ambassador Taylor and Mr Kennedy. You both knew that the aid had been unfrozen. Is that right correct and Ambassador Taylor you testified that President Trump obviously also knew that the aid did had been frozen as well since he was responsible for doing that. Is that correct. That's what I had been told. That's what we heard on that conference call. Yes but took neither of your knowledge Ukrainians. Were not aware of that at that point. Not To my knowledge not to my knowledge but right after President Zilenski thanks president trump from for his great support in the area of defense president trump. Then says and we'll go to the next excerpt I want you do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine and they say crowd strike. I guess you have one of your wealthy people. The server they say Ukraine has it and then at the end of the paragraph says. Whatever you can do? It's very important that you do it. If that's possible now Mr Ken. You've testified a little bit about how important this White House meeting was the president's Alinsky. How would you expect a new Ukrainian president to interpret a request for a favour from the president of the United States? I cannot interpret the mind of presidents alinsky other than to say that it was very clear that what they were hoping to get out of. This meeting was date and a confirmation that he could come to Washington. Obviously you can't put yourself in the mind but if the Ukrainian president then for a country that's so dependent on the United States for for all things including military assistance is requested to do a favor. How how do you think the Ukrainians would interpret that if you go further into the call record as part of this and we don't have it on screen? But to the best of my rolex elect recollection reading it. After it was released in September twenty fifth presidents. Alinsky went into having whatever your problems were. That was the old team. I've got a new team. And we will do whatever's appropriate and be transparent and honest about it. I don't remember the exact words but he he was trying to be in his own. Words Response Be Responsive to conduct the business of Ukrainian government in a transparent apparently."