All ghibli. We have a different kind of slightly slower but a different kind of paradigm shift. That's happening over. The last few years in regards to china and how the world looks at china and i just wonder whether you feel. Maybe there's a risk that you're actually out of step with that still carrying the flag for a belief that engagement with china and gradual bringing of china into the sort of multilateral liberal economic order was the direction the world was going to take and instead now you have clear competition much more than engagement and a very muscular china. where does your vision. I mean a you. Not changing your approach false enough. Oh well stephanie. I think a watershed moments in canada's relationship with china has been arbitrary detention of michael cove. Reagan michael spor That is the issue for our country when it comes to china. These are two really brave canadians. Who has been detained for. No fault of their own and canadians are really aware of it. Does that change. Your view of what is possible in terms of future policy with china is a country that you can do business with you. Can continue to engage with positivity. Well let's. It is a country that canada and every member of the g seven and the g twenty does business with so that's a reality This is very different from the relationship of the world's democracies with the soviet union for example Where we occupied very separates economics spheres. But you know in the game Turning to that soviet experience of my own I have always believed that. Still shared values are really important and are very important basis or deep international collaboration for canada. Those values our democracy. They are human rights that has also that has been a sea-change in at jesus spending and deficits resident biden's proposed six trillion just under six trillion dollars worth of spending three big packages. You talked about having had your experience in the post-soviet world you saw. We saw their. How incredibly damaging. It was to a society and economy. Sometimes if you lose control of inflation lose control of the economy. Is there a bit of you that that things were being too complacent about spending and borrowing in this area. And it's we're gonna come back to haunt us. Not just not just canada but this this change in the global attitude so no but i am very careful. I am a canadian finance minister so i am surrounded by economists who are very very careful With our numbers with our projections. And i'm canadian too. So that comes naturally to me. And i think it's a good thing and i'm gonna give you an example stephanie In our fall economic statement we predicted a deficit for twenty twenty twenty twenty one of three hundred and eighty one point six billion dollars and we came in at three hundred and fifty four point. Two billion dollars crashes the goody two shoes economy we we we embrace it. Some people say that we are earnest and boring. And i say it's comedian way. It's a good things but by six. Be biden's not this not being cautious. And we know that there are people on all sides including his supporters. Who were worried that the numbers are getting a bit big if the us in cautious and gets into trouble. Canada get sucked into you. Know we talked about paradigm shifts. And what shapes. You're you know how the lessons of the past shape your actions. I would say something that has shaped. My actions are government actions and based on the conversations around the g seven table. I can tell you this is shaping. The actions of many g. Seven ministers is actually the experience of two thousand eight two thousand nine and i think what most g seven countries feel looking back on the response to two thousand eight. Two thousand nine is we didn't do enough and didn't recover soon enough from the two thousand eight two thousand nine recession and it's one reason that i am very focused on driving a fast and robust recovery from the recession canada. Has today we still have. you know. we're glad to have had the ten percent grave in the fourth quarter of last year. But we still have five hundred thousand canadians. Who either don't have a job or working. Fewer fewer than they were before coded that it to me is an economic imperative but also a political imperative to get them back to work all of us politically can reap the whirlwind if we don't if we allow economic hardship to fester and i think a fair criticism of elites you know including financial journalist deletes I was a financial journalist in two thousand and eight. Two thousand nine like stephanie. And i think you know people could quite fairly say In the recovery elites did pretty well pretty quickly but a lot of regular people were left behind for far too long I think it behooves all of us to not let that happen. This time and i remember stephanie. I don't know if anyone ever told you this when we were baby. Journalists at the f. T. but i remember One editor saying to me. You know what the difference is between a recession and depression. It's a depression when a journalists framed loses their job and something. I've been mindful of in. This recession is the kinds of people. Who've you and i know stephanie. White collar people Have absolute than pretty fine You know the worst we've had to deal with is is strain from zoom and certain you know having your kids around the house in them. Struggling from ice rink from zoom to one of my children was doing online school today wearing sunglasses when he said it was because of the glare from screen when we look at the numbers in canada people at the top of the income distribution actually have more money than they did before the crisis. They've been saving money. And i would just urge all of us to remember the case shape also means people at the bottom people who work with their means have suffered a much greater health risks. They're the ones who have lost their jobs and our economies will be if we don't help them but our societies and at the end of the day democracies will be weaker if we don't help them. Chip robert mcfarland the british author. He's written about insight different context. He writes about called under land he talks about. I'm burials and he's actually talking about you. Know in the arctic circle where things have become unburied peop- by climate change. That people thought we're going to be buried for hundreds of years. I sort of feel like there's been masses of burials jakovic covert you know things come unto the surface that we sort of knew were there. I mean slightly with your if you were still journalistic and you think about the things that have been revealed by kevin. Maybe permanently changed in. What's the book that you would be writing. What do you think is the most significant thing about this whole period..