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And then finally you can show some some report by spreading the word just take a moment to tell someone who you think might get something out of these interviews because word of mouth is the best form of advertising for the program all right I'll stop there let's get to the interview with Centeno Scholtz Dr Matthew Lucas Dr Matthew Lucas thank you very much for coming on to the podcast course excited to do it so the way that I started out all these interviews is I guess background so if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about your background and also sharing a little bit about the company that you work for sure yes so again Matt Lucas and I go by Madame Pretty informal and you know my background is basically I did sports medicine ended up going to medical school here in Colorado in in medical squad pretty plugged into the orthopedic community in in the Denver Metro area And so just got interested in musculoskeletal injury muscles and bones total joint replacement back pain and and You know once in Med school I sort of started kind of taking my education that way so you know everybody in Meskel does rotations so I rotated with a lot of the surgeons in the area and then with that you know I I realized I really liked Sort of what we call elective orthopaedic surgery and that's that's more muscle muscle and joint pain arthritis sports injuries not so much orthopedic trauma and so you know glad I found Physical Medicine Rehab which is my residency specialty I found that to be really interesting that was kind of will or what we also refer to as medicine or non operative orthopedics so I- later went to Stanford I did a physical medicine and Rehab residency there and then after after residency and even while I was there there was a lot of emerging thought and research on using stem cells and more importantly biologics and I'll talk a little bit more about what that means but basically using your body's zone blood products to treat orthopedic conditions so there was a one of my tending North Bec- surgery attending there named Jason are Gu He he was researching a lot of these biologics for orthopedics I had a couple of other mentors they're doing the same and I got interested in it and as I started researching a little bit more I found Found out about a guy named Chris Santana oh who own Santana insults clinic and in Kristen Teno John Schultz at the two owners and founders of Santana Clinic I found that they were doing a lot of really interesting things with with stem cells stem cells and NPR P. I N. so as I started getting to know those guys and was put in contact with with those guys found out that they you know every year they take a couple of people to do a fellowship because really we don't get that training in any residency and so those guys are very heavily invested in in Ortho biologics and training people to use of biologics and and kind of how I became interested in in you know that realm of Orthopedic Medicine so long story Short I flew out interviewed with with them work with them for a year kind of doing that sub specialty training and they had an extra spot for a physician and so I I ended up sticking around and I'm from Denver so so this was a good fit for me with the Centeno in Scholtz those two guys did they they're the pioneers of the first people to these two guys with the first guys to develop stem cell therapy is that not correct so you know there there are two of the first people to start routinely using it for to treat Humans to treat orthopedic conditions in humans you know it's been around for a long time to be honest orthopedic surgeon started using bone marrow themselves to treat certain conditions back in like the eighties nineties now wasn't called stem cells necessarily back then it was just bone marrow we use the tree things but from from again from an elective orthopaedic surgery standpoint or an elective pain standpoint. They're really the first guys to start off doing that as a routine option for patients and so in that respect of their pioneers I mean nobody else was really offering that they started using it back in two thousand five of two thousand six a lot of community at that time sort of set hey this video but in fact there was some some pretty decent evidence especially in Europe to that bone-marrow is pretty critical for orthopedic tissue healing or a plays an important role and so that's that's really what prompted those guys to say hey you know there's something to this if you know in a little bit of background with with even those two Chris Santana was physical medicine and Rehab and then John Schultz was this is the oldest and both of them did pain management as a fellowship and so their practice prior to two thousand and five looked like nerve ablation Cz high-dose epidurals steroid injections you know putting in pain pumps are pain stimulators and as you know after they've they'd been in it for a long time because both of them have been practicing for a couple of decades already they started realizing that this was sort of a hamster wheel and a lot of the a lot of pain clinics tend to be that where it's we burn these nerves every year and then people never quite get out of pain and they tended to see the same patients over in over and over again and so they sort of thinking there has to be another way or what something new that gives longer lasting results that's actually healthy for tissues so that's not cutting that's not burning what is something that actually prompts a healing response and that's really what got them on that path to where they started using that some of the I people to really start doing that what is it about stem cells that makes them a very good method to deal with someone's pain and suffering yeah so great question and and kind of key in understanding why we do what we do really but so so stem cells by definition if we really want go into a stem cell one oh one you know there's there's really multiple types of stem cells right you'll hear about toad odin stem cells multi potent stem cells pluripotent stem cells. Really what what you're talking about is when you think of an even back in the ninety as with the whole Bush ban on stem cell research that was talking about sort of these toady potent or unlimited potential stem cells from embryos those stem cells could become any tissue in the body they could become nerve tissue brain tissue bone heart muscle gi tract muscle says a an unlimited potential type stem cell right when we talk about what we're using for orthopedics it has potential only to develop into pic- tissues so when you hear the word. MSCE or Amazon Komo stem cell which is what Joe Rogan talks about a lot on his podcast but you hear that that that maximalism zinc lineage self meaning that's missing Komo means musculoskeletal tissues so by definition that cell is really limited to dividing into bone cartilage tendons ligaments fat and muscle other Musco skeletal tissue so in other words that already they've already differentiated into that lineage and they can't go back they can't go back to become nerve tissue or an eyeball or you know whatever you know some of these submits that you think of going to grow you know a brain in my knee if you inject this no that's not that's not the case so you know we use in we can talk more about that too but we use bone marrow derived Mozelle stem cells and it's a little more complicated than that because there's actually a lot of a lot of cells within the bone marrow and so there's some debate too whether bone marrow is action bone marrow MS's an MS's themselves are actually the most Horton cell or is it the relationship of all of the different types of cells in the bone marrow working together that provide a therapeutic benefit nobody knows the answer to that and everybody's trying to figure out what is the mechanism for pain relief what why does it work but but you know in its simplest terms that's what a you know MSCE it is something that can divide become those types of tissues it's something that can signal neighboring els around it to prompt a repair response so you know a lot of times the museum will stem cell doesn't necessarily mean that it just becomes cartilage and that's why got better it's that that zank stem cell signaled other cells in the in the area and the environment signaled the the local tendon cells to wake up to repair itself those MS's secrete chemicals and they communicate with other tissues with other with other MS's for example some of the those chemicals that they secrete canned in turn bind some inflammatory molecules. Some of those inflammatory molecules are the ones that caused cartilage breakdown so it basically it modulate S- it modulate your your immune system and away so not only can they divide the media tends to tends to latch onto that oh these stem cells are going to divide and become new cartilage and you're going to grow a new knee that's not really the case that's that's one mechanism but the you know a big portion of the therapeutic benefit people believe is actually that they just signal other cells around them to wake up up and start repairing and they clench a lot of the bad inflammation in the joint so those are two of the the big mechanisms for how they work and why they work but yes there's a lot of misconception about what it is and it's a little more complicated than I think a lot of people giving credit to clarify so embryonic stem cells anything whereas the stem cells bone marrow stem cells that you're working with have already sort of gone down the path of becoming must Taylor skeletal exact okay all right all right yeah and that's a little bit misleading too because you know I think you know one of the biggest issues right now and epedemics in the use of I guess I'll backtrack I like using the word biologics to describe anything from your own tissue anything from you human tissue used to treat conditions orthopedic conditions saw referred it has biologic right because we have a number of things that that we can treat with people have heard if you know platelet rich plasma PRP there's bone marrow derived MS's or boomer drive stem cells there's fat derived stem cells here's what what we're kind of talking about now is embryonic stem cells the big issue there is that most ninety nine percent of the time that you see ear embryonic stem cells actually misleading it's not would it really is a birth tissue product so that can look like a lot of things that can be people people always call him stem cells but but you'll hear being amniotic fluid stem cells cord blood stem cells Martin Jelly stem cells that the reality is that that's actually just false advertising false marketing a true embryonic stem cell is is really regulated through the FDA for very particular trials and that's incredibly strict to actually get into a trial like that you know Joe Joe Rogan's podcast its reach or actually I don't think it's as podcast I think it was his his blog or a twitter or something but he he mentioned a trial in California where a spinal cord injury people were injected with embryonic stem cells now those were that was an FDA regulated trial where they they were able to get an embryo Annex stem cell that had been pushed to become nerve tissue already so again the push that cell to become a you know a neural type tissue for the sir generating nurse as you know as you know needed for a spinal cord injury you and in that trial they actually eat basically baid the the spinal cord injury in those cells at the time of surgery or actually I take that back that might have been a little bit after after the initial surgery but there's a couple of trials non for that purpose for spinal cord injury one of my you know in residency actually one of the places I worked was Santa Clara Valley Medical Center San Jose they were one of those.