Twitter, Emily Vander, David discussed on Slate's Political Gabfest


The problem is what kind of employers like Oh. Yes, there's a mob at the gates. Here. Take have have have my employees body. Take it! I mean that seems to me where the failing is? It isn't that the debate is happening. It's at the these employers are gutless that they that they just. Are like toss people out the door. I wish I had. Read more about the David shore piece before having this conversation. Emily I thought that there was that the story was a little bit more complicated than the way you presented it, but it but but regardless. I think David Europe point. The I think the response to your point would be. That The people who are complaining about this part of their target is the employer's right. They want employers to not. Inappropriately fire people for four. Wants to win. Those people have been criticized by you. Know by the mob, or you know on twitter, or or in whatever whatever sends now again. I I I'm not taking a position on any of the particular cases. Just because again. My view is that and I think that the David shore went is an example of this is that we simply do not know enough about everything that happened and everything that that employer was aware of and again I might have this wrong but I thought that there was a nondisclosure agreement. That was signed in that case which that's true. Yeah. That's why we don't okay, but as A. Lawyer when when I hear that there's a nondisclosure agreement. My immediate thought is. That there are some things that both parties don't want to disclose and well, but I think it was maybe a pre existing anyway, getting into the weeds. This I'm not positive about that. Is He is one of the issues is one of the things that. Who which side is the side that wants all ideas to be expressed in this. Feels to me like we're not. We're not in a world where people are unable to express. Ideas everywhere. It's too many ideas. Like people people need to chill out and listen a little bit more and stop expressing. Fair I think a lot of this is just about social media. Like yeah, you can express any idea, but the consequences of expressing some ideas can be that you have a ton of people come after you on social media now. I have two minds about that. Part of May just thinks like you have to have a thick skin if you wanNA express controversial ideas that Togo's. You don't have to look the other side, though is if it's starting to translate into real world, consequences like firing than we do have to take this seriously and also who work online when they're online presence gets firebombed in that way. That's a huge problem, so there was another casualty. Casualty of this letter, Trans writer at Fox named Emily Vander. Worth wrote a post and also I think a letter to her HR department, in which she was critical of medical easiest, who is one of her colleagues? One of the CO founders of vox he had signed a letter and Emily's note said she didn't want any kind of professional repercussions format, but she wanted know she was really disappointed that he'd signed the letter because J., K. Rowling who's written some anti trans things and kind of made a point of doing that had signed the letter along with other people who've been part of this discussion in a way. I think Trans people have been critical of. Emily Vander worth ended up, being just like completely trolled in this horrible horrible way on the work of Yes. Awful. Why has the right wing like media? You know places like the daily caller got a hold of this post and just really really went after her. But that. What what possible criticism could there be of her? Saying that saying it's sort of? Like in that respectful of well, she did also say that Matt had made her feel slightly less safe. So that's okay. Yes, well. She was seen even though she said I. Don't want to have any professional repercussions I think the part of an I do not share. This view I felt terrible for her. What happened, but I think there were people who are super skeptical. We're like this is really disingenuous. You're calling out one of your colleagues in this public way. You know you're pretending that you don't want him canceled. Slash fired. Actually you do, and so then there was a lot of suspicion of her, and then this sort of horrible migration into right world, crazy town land. I just to me the that it was an example of the fact that the people who end up really bearing the brunt of this kind of trolling are people from disadvantaged marginalized groups. It was not an accident that the person who ended up like bearing so much of the brunt of this was a trans person. Now this also happened to a lot huge tidal wave of trolling to Jenny Boylan who's also had signed the letter, and there's just something so sad and awful about that right that like the people who are vulnerable ended up paying a price for this discussion that lots of. Much more. kind of traditionally safe white cysts, male writers were not having any kind of repercussions like that. Come their way Anyway. That is both about this cultural moment, and also just like the real pitfalls of Social Media David Can I. Ask you a question a mile to do that. Yes, it was just wondering David if you if you think there is. Any problem here. That's worth talking about and by problem. I really do mean. Taking a position I, mean the problem might be that you know the problem might be. There's too much criticism of holding people accountable, or the problem might be that there's too much vitriol and. Pushing people out of jobs or or sort of harassing people so. Thoroughly Online. Do you think there's a problem on either side well I. Let me try to get to that, so I was thinking about metoo. And when metoo happened, it was so clear in. Virtually every case of somebody who had their career ruined, and and their reputation disgraced in almost every case there, and you can argue in a couple of margin that those people were real serial misbehaviors. Who? Done grotesque things, sometimes criminal things, and it was hard to work up a lot of. Sympathy for everyone involved in that. This. What's going on here? I find so confounding confusing the only through thread that I see that I can hold onto, and then I'm going to try to spin into a rope. Is that the Internet culture? The way that people talk to each other engage with each other and gather around each other and gang up on each other is a very bad thing. that. The the theme here seems to be the Internet. Has this capacity to cause fission reaction? That just makes everything explode in a way that things get blown up when they should win. That shouldn't when they shouldn't get blown up. There should just be a small little fire instead and. And, that part has me concerned and I don't know whether I'm concerned because I am on the side of the harpers. Letter writers counter letter I. Just can't. I literally can't even wrap my head around I. Feel like the medium and the way. These debates are constructed I just. Looking at twitter a little bit. You know from the time I spent I. Look at twitter, a lot of the time I spent on twitter and just feel like man I don't WanNa. Be In these conversations I don't want to engage. This seems like such a poisonous toxic way to engage with with people, and that makes me feel like it's the medium is the problem not either the people who want free speech or don't want free speech or want to cancel or don't want to be cancelled that that part of it is harder for me to follow. It's the medium that has me concerned. That seems right to me, and I get an, and this is perhaps an obvious point by what's so hard about that. Is. To connect to. You know the police reform conversation of criminal justice conversation. We were just having or even the me conversation. There are so many instances where the bad actors..

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