United States, KGB, Berlin discussed on Unstructured Interviews
Oh you know that I believe is stalling killed more people than Hitler. Yes what she this thing. They went when they were fighting the Nazis in the open field and it was just no turning back. If you if you turn back you would be killed by your own people. That that's how how that's how heroism was was forced. I was just like being sarcastic. They probably changed at a chain of command. Absolutely that is how that is is how the old men that were The head of the polit bureau have stayed effectively. Who couldn't stand straight anymore? Were still in power. That's why Stalin state and powerful too so long even though a lot of people knew that they were a in either evil or be totally dysfunctional. That's that is the extreme hierarchical system where you are not allowed to think and for yourself as if it goes against the mainstream sinking in ironically. What I learned from that is that was the most important difference since you know in terms of the battle? They're there to that was the first one and the advantage tactics wise that the US has it's a much looser command command. It's kind of like I want this objective. I don't really care how you get there but I kind of want that stuff there. And then that leaves a lot of choices to people down below. Yeah that's the way I used to manage the. That's the way I used to manage corporate America. I let I told my direct reports. Well this is. What the marching orders? This is how much resources you have go ahead and do did not. Everybody appreciated that. The ones that don't appreciate that kind of leadership style. The micromanaging insecure secure individuals. Who Know that? They don't belong where they are. That makes sense you kind of are contrary to the Soviet disciplined because you were sort of given that leash contrary I was I was given the freedom I I made. I Made Ninety percent of the decision. said the AH impacted my life as an agent myself. There was just no other way I had to make decisions. I couldn't ask my master's in even if I did through. You know. Communication of icy could riding in the mail that it just took way too long to get an answer back and it didn't know how to answer most of the stuff anyway. He is just one example. I think I put this in the book they. They didn't have a clue what it's like to live in the United States. And I I still remember. This is one of those moments when one of my handlers told me Jack and I wasn't they called me data than data is one one thing I gotta tell you when you get to New York you got to stay away from the Jews. That is laugh out loud funny right so so that means they. They really didn't know what they they were doing. And this is sort of think about it. It's almost like the keystone cops of of espionage. I am not saying the KGB was totally ineffectual ineffectual but most of their success is particularly at the time when I was operating out where achieved by walk INS by defectors actors from the United States or other countries for that matter the illegals program was totally ineffective. Really I wanted to ask. Have you had an opportunity to ever ever visit or speak with your counterpart who's a counterpart of I guess counterpart people who did your same job. Okay Yeah I met one and that was. That was very interesting so I I'm in Berlin Germany. visit the spy museum and I visit the museum together with Oj. They had just opened together with my son and his wife. And we are wondering around this guy and there's only a video of this guy who says you know I was an illegal agent agenda in the United States and I'm saying to my son I don't believe this guy so my son goes and looks up somebody in the office and ask. Is that that somebody else. Would you like to meet another one of those originals and they come out and introduce myself and so we established a relationship. In the next time I wasn't Berlin I was introduced to by the name of boycott. I won't give the last name because he is He's still semi-secret T.. Es doesn't want to be on public very much boycott went to the United States and he lived. He lived in New York City with his wife. He actually was able able to take his wife in a place called S Toria which was only about five miles of the place where I live. which was called is called Woodside? We didn't know about each other. A he came about five years after me and his only task was to just live in the United States red. I said to you know what I hate you because I had many other thanks to do I wanted to ask you about some of those. I know you wrote about flying to California and the professor that you you looked up but obviously without revealing things that may be secret. Can you give some general or mail take out the names or whatever you have to be curious some of the other things that maybe you didn't list Quite frankly there are none simply. That weren't too many of those tasks. And you see the one thing that was really really good at who was compartmentalization cassation. I was given just enough information to be able to operate which is not always a good idea. Because if you if you if if you don't you don't have a frame of reference very often you wind up making the wrong decision. And here's another thing. I found out I met a fellow fellow who lives in the United States now he he was a member of the. FSP GONNA office is. That's the new version of the KGB. We'll be right. Correct and the F. B. operates very similar to how the KGB operates because they weren't trained by KGB so you know what do you expect and he told me with reasonable certainty that there may have been only only one or two people in all of the KGB that really know my identity and most likely the individual who who made the high level decisions is about. You know where to send me what to do and what to ask me to do. Probably didn't know me by face. It seems wasteful. Yeah but it's that's how you keep a secret. Well yeah I mean the only way to keep a secret is to people.