Cheryl, Kim Scott, Sheryl Sandberg discussed on Wisdom From The Top


To two simple things. Caring personally and challenging directly. And that doesn't seem so radical. And yet the combination is so rare that I called it radical candor because very often when we care too much about someone's feelings, we give in to ruinous empathy. We fail to challenge them. And given the rule in a sympathy, instead of being radically candid. You know, that story that you told us Sheryl Sandberg is so interesting in part because of the way that you frame it and the way that you reflected on it. And in a choose your own adventure book, right? Let's say you could come out of that conversation, especially in the context of how we talk about workplaces today, in a very different way. I mean, some people might say, you know, Cheryl could have just ignored the ums because Kim was running a successful part of the business and clearly impressed that the leadership, like who cares if she said, that could be one of the paths that you take on the choose your own adventure, another path could be somebody might say, you know, she's just never call anybody stupid. Yeah, absolutely. So I think it's really important to think about one thing. Radical candor gets measured, not the speaker's mouth, but at the listener's ear. Yes. And so Cheryl knew me relatively well at this point. So we had gone a business school together. That helped. And we had been working closely together. And Cheryl had had several opportunities to show me that she really did care. So for example, when I moved from New York to California to take the job, I was lonely out here. I was single and I didn't really know anyone, and she could tell that I was lonely. And she introduced me to a book group. I'm still friends with a bunch of those women to this day. So when I had a family member diagnosed with cancer, she said you go get on an airplane, you need to be with your family right now. Your team and I will write your coverage plan. We have your back at this moment. That's what teams do for one another. But the other part of it was that she was very direct with us when we screwed up. But because we knew she cared, we knew that it was coming from a good place. And the other thing about that story is that other people wouldn't have had to say those words to other people on the team. Because they would have heard her the first time. I think the other thing about radical candor, is you need to be conscious of whether you need to be moving out on the challenge directly to mention. And that's basically what you need to do when the other person is either defensive or just not hearing your feedback. And it's hard to move up on care personally without going the wrong way on challenge directly and winding up in ruinous empathy. So often, in fact, when I was at Apple, we would hire actors to do these role plays. And we hired actors because actors can cry on command. And these as soon as the actors would start to cry these badass software engineers would be like, oh, it doesn't matter. It's okay. It's no big deal. But it did matter. And it wasn't okay. And it was just a role play. Don't back off what you're saying, but do take a minute to attend to the emotions in the room. I think that one of the biggest problems with feedback is that we tend to dismiss the emotional signals that we're getting. But when we communicate, we communicate on an intellectual plane and on an emotional plane at the same time. And if the moment that someone becomes emotionally, you say, don't take it personally. Please, just eliminate that phrase. Vocabulary, because if you say don't take it personally, then you are refusing to listen to and to understand the emotional signals that you're getting and you're not going to you're not going to communicate very well. It's like when the nurses about to take blood and says relax. I'm never relaxed. You're about to put a needle in my arm. I'm not relaxed. Yeah, yeah, don't tell me to do something that's impossible. In just a minute, to encourage radical candor in the workplace and encourage feedback, Kim Scott pulls out the big guns. A stuffed daisy named whoops a daisy. Stay with us, I'm guy raz and you're listening to wisdom from the top. This message comes from NPR sponsor, Wix dot com. If you're ready to build a successful business online, go to Wix dot com and start by creating your website. You can choose from over 800 designer made website templates to showcase your brand the way you want and with advanced SEO and marketing tools you can expand online. Join millions of people running and growing their businesses with Wix. This message comes from NPR sponsor, future. What are the best workout programs? The ones that are custom built just for you. Future is the new workout experience that pairs you one on one with your own fitness coach. Your coach will map out a plan based on your goals with workouts delivered to your phone each week. Future your Apple watch and the app all pair seamlessly so you can communicate with your coach, track your progress and celebrate your achievements. Get started with 50% off your first three months at try future dot com slash NPR. Hey, welcome back to wisdom from the top. I'm guy raz. So it's late 2000s and Kim Scott is rocking it as a manager at Google, and she credits a big part of her success to encouraging even celebrating feedback. There's a definite order of operations to radical candidate that all begins with soliciting feedback. So in every single one on one, I had with people I would let them get through their agenda items first and then I would save 5 minutes at the end and say something along the lines of what could I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me. And there's a few important things about that. Just identifying the question you are going to ask. So I like that question. I actually I stole it from Fred Kaufman, who was my coach at Google. And but other people don't like that question. So the most important thing about the question you're going to ask to solicit feedback is that it sounds like you. And then when you get the feedback, you've got to reward the candor. You've got, and you've got to be sort of theatrical about rewarding the candor. At one point, at Google, some customer had given me one of those big glass statues. And I'm like, what do I do with this thing? And so I declared it the I was wrong. You were right statue. And I would go and put it around on people's desks. And that was really important the theatricality of a leader being eager to be proven wrong is important. Another thing that I did at Google to try to create this culture was I brought in I'm going to rewrite history a little bit. I'll explain to you why. I brought in a stuffed daisy. And it was actually a monkey and I got feedback later that that was racist. So correctly. I.

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