Listen: Elizabeth Warren, Bernie And Bernie Sanders discussed on The Ezra Klein Show
"Special crossover weeds Show episode post-debate special of medicine. I talk about both the debate that the Democrats had the other night In Iowa and the debate I think in some ways more importantly they did not have have which was a more interesting debate and so we end up getting pretty deep into some of the differences between The Joe Biden theory of politics and the Bernie Sanders Elizabeth Warren theories politics. So I think this is a a fun conversation Quick notes The tore the Victoria is Beginning to sell out which is great. Thank you all for all of you. Who are coming for now? Sold out in San Francisco in DC in New York in Brooklyn But if you are In Portland in Boston in Seattle Los Angeles good why were polarized dot com or as reclined DOT COM to sign up for those dates and of course please approach the book and I'll be releasing more dates in more places very soon so stay tuned for that But here I am talking about the debate with Matt Iglesias. So we're GONNA talk about the debate. The state of the campaign and some of the debates. That didn't really happen but I I I mean we should talk about what did happen up there on the stage in which it seemed like the big headline takeaway was that a slightly Nasty Brewing Controversy Versi between Warren and Sanders Got Nastier. And it's a little hard for me to say what it's about exhausted what it's about out so there's a CNN. Article came out now a couple of days ago. That reported that Sources close to Warren Basically Or so it seems anyway say hey there was a conversation between Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Where Bernie told Warren Again according to sources in the room although who disorder is a little bit unclear on the story according to sources in the room Bernie said a woman cannot win the presidency and twenty twenty and this comes on. CNN story Bernie tender denies it. Flat Out He says I would never say that. You can see me on. Television saying a woman can win the presidency. I've said that for a long time. and He makes the point which I think is a reasonable point that it look Hillary Clinton won more votes in Donald Trump in that election. So how could you possibly even. How can anyone believe a woman couldn't win the presidency But Warren's and team releases a statement from Warren later that night the on the day of the the story breaks saying nope she stands by that. She does not really want to talk about this. This is not a thing that she thinks should be a huge issue. But that is what Bernie said. I was not in the room and it is very hard to know what is happening. It is notable that Warren is holding the story. She is not saying. Oh there's probably misinterpretation or something here my gut on what happened here. Is that human beings communicate unclearly with each other and Bernie probably said something in his mind was more like Donald Trump will run a sexist misogynist a campaign against a woman that will make it harder for her to win and the way he said it or the way it was heard by Warren was was a woman can't win but then this is all whole Meta issue about wise is coming out now. This is a more than year-old conversation. Wise it being leaked right before Iowa. And it is blown up up the alliance the pack nonaggression pact between Bernie and Orrin. One thing that I think is noteworthy. Is that to me. It seemed like something broadly similar. There was a moment when Warren nearly caught Joe Biden in the pulse and one thing that I thought might have happened at that point and is that left wing people in general or left-wing like thought leaders got behind warrant. They could have been like. This is great. Joe Biden is not going to be the nominee. Someone someone who's for Medicare for all is going to be the nominee. Somebody who wants to take on billionaires is GONNA be the nominee and some people did say that but there was a heavy contingent amount of the Bernie Internet that took Warren's potential taking a first place as an existential crisis moment for Bernie Sanders and for their sort of larger intellectual project of socialism and like a ton of anti Warren content came out from the laughed left at exactly the time she was facing sort of maximum peril from the right and to an extent. I think you have to see not the Warren campaigns now effort to like Nuke Bernie on the verge of Iowa as and civil payback for that that even though Bernie. Arnie didn't personally sort of way into that. In the same way both of them have in fact for months now approached this as a lanes game in in which like the goal is to defeat Joe Biden but the means which you defeat. Joe Biden is by tearing down the other progressive candidate and it's something that makes a lot of progressive rested minded people who I know feel very uncomfortable because like they like Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. They would prefer either of them to Biden and they don't think this kind of fighting is like constructive politics but I think narrowly like it makes it makes a lot of tactical sense and there were to be said there were. It came out that there were talking points being distributed inside the Bernie campaign a few days before the story hit there. Were Anti Warren. And were explaining you know in. I think quite normal primary way how to talk out supporting Elizabeth Warren and into supporting Bernie Sanders. So there's some growing enmity in the campaigns. I think you're right to foreground the this fact that the extremely online contingent of the Bernie Sphere has been attacking Elizabeth Warren Fall On. I mean talking here about folks like Jacob Ben Nathan Robinson Current Affairs the assault on Warren as a professional managerial class. Snake is be is way predated this and other all saying you know. See like she's really but this is politics And I WANNA make two points about this at our bigger one is that it is not the case that there's any reason to think a woman cannot win the presidency. There's actually a lot out of research on Women running for office in America Jennifer Lawless in American universities. Don't work here and it seems women often do a little bit better than men now. That might be some amount of Jackie Robinson. A fact which women run and the difficulties of getting to that point but in two thousand eighteen women candidates did extremely well if you look at some of the key states Like say it Wisconsin. You've Tammy Baldwin is elected Democratic senator there and a woman So there's no reason to think a woman can't win in twenty twenty and in general I think it is almost bad to be having this conversation repeatedly because there is political science evidence suggesting that when you have this conversation you actually in Q.. People's at this point pretty unfounded fears. That women can't win so that's also one reason. I'm a little skeptical that this was coming. I have no idea who leaked the story. Sorry but this would be to me a strange tactical decision for the warned the warring campaign at high levels to make. I would not be surprised at all if this is something. Eh say these reporters have been hearing for a long time. It had been out there. They've been having a little bit of trouble confirming it and people around Warren got more pissed at Bernie. Somebody finally like give them the the the the true confirmation they needed sometimes stories. Don't come out in his tactical away as it seems when you're reading them because one thing that Elizabeth Warren has. It's very very specifically not try to do is run a kind of. I'm with her candidacy in part because I think they understand this evidence. Pretty well that you want to be very carefulness. Rebecca tracer is a great piece over the cut about how dangerous and difficult it is for candidates from Groups have been up traditionally one political power talk honestly about the challenges they face and she notes that warrants campaign has handled very delicately until now and so and did not seem ready for this to come out their initial set of answers were very halting seem surprised so I really. I'd be very curious to know the back story on this but I don't actually know it. I sort of deeper part of the backstory of this that I do think is is relevant. Is that in the specific context of like now January. Twenty nineteen to say a woman will face is crippling disadvantages as the nominee is like understood as the anti-feminist position to take but back in the winter of twenty. Sixteen two thousand seventeen and I think throughout all of twenty seventeen if I had said I don't believe that Hillary Clinton's gender was a significant factor in her electoral defeat. That would have been received by the very same people who are most amped up. About what Bernie. Ernie allegedly did as like me being the bad misogynist and like how can I deny the evident reality that Basayi Janie held Hillary back right. And if you look at like Hillary's official account of what happened in a book literally titled What Happened. She very much foreground. Foreground the idea that being a woman is what hurt. Her right was decisive in causing her to lose that election and I road and said like several times at the time like I mean I know a lot of the people who worked in Hillary world and I know the depth and sincerity of their commitment to promoting women in American politics and I was very vexed by their lack of consideration of like what the second order consequences of going with this narrative. We're going to be and I just think. A lot of the democratic electorate has responded minded in like a very predictable way to like the literal literal words. I hate hate the phrase the establishment but like these sort of you've post Nova remnants of Hillary world really clearly articulated the view that sexism was crippling disadvantage for Hillary Clinton and also also that Donald Trump is a dangerous authoritarian whose existence in office is like an existential threat to American democracy. It is very logical conclusion. Those is two points to be like. I might like to see a woman be president but I don't want to risk the future of the American constitution over it. Let's go with Joe Biden. Let's go with Bernie Sanders Anders. Let's go with with whatever and it. Honestly as an argument never really made sense to me like she says in her book that the criticism she took for her paid speaking engagements. Simmons was an example of sexism. And like I just don't think it was like anybody would get criticized by the left for doing a bunch of paid speeches for investment banks. A couple of things here one. Is that a striking thing about this story. And it goes to exactly what you were saying about a week ago Joe Biden said and I'm quoting him a little bit from memory here but I'm going to get this basically right. Hillary Clinton faced a lot of sexism in two thousand sixteen. What happened? Her was really really unfair. They they were really unfair to her. Well folks that's not going to happen to me right and Biden on the record in public voice. Exactly the argument. You're just saying right. which is a logical set of conclusions based on the premises laid out among others by the Hillary Clinton campaign or post campaign? It got a lot less attention than this behind closed doors whereas weird thing which is a general problem.."