A new story from Scientific Sense
Welcome to the site of accents. Podcast where we explore emerging ideas from signs policy economics and technology. My name is gill. Eappen we talk with woods leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest scientific senses unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation. Be color a wide variety of domains. Rare new discoveries are made and new technologies are developed on a daily basis the most interested in how new ideas affect society and help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation v seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations. Bit researchers leaders. Who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot com and displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics guests at other ideas please send up to info at scientific sense dot com and i can be reached at gil at eappen dot info. Yesterday's dini whose professional physics at amazon is taking versity. One of the primary of usage focus is new leaders. Welcome to see you thank you. Yeah thanks for doing this. So i know that you have done a lot of work on neutrinos. You have a few papers. That came out recently. And i want to talk to a twenty eighteen paper dalogue and my own neutrino signatures of primordial black holes. invite you say. These studied primordial black holes ph is as sources of massive neutrinos by hawking radiation under the hypothesis that black holes emit nuclear no bass item states be described quantitatively called the pbs evolution and lifetime is affected by the mass and flew munich dialect my own nature of neutrinos before we get the details celia I wanted to get some definitions of folks would know what black court saw a few episodes of black holes Here we're talking about. The pride won't imprac codes owes The these black holes are fall close to the big bang And then as caulking radiation Sort of The black hole evaporating So to speak and that That lady Imitating these particles called neutrinos. Right is that. Do i understand that correctly. Yes so so pry bhutia blackhaws before we get the neutrinos what is sort of the mechanism of formation their ho- exactly what they have formed sure We believe that Primordial hose could form in the early universe from density fluctuations so We know that any object could can possibly become a black hole if you compress it into a very very small volume so this same process could happen in the universe with Density fluctuations that could be a regional space where there is an over density compared to the surrounding and each of over the east coast past Then then it could get to the point of becoming a black hole This this The details of this process are beyond my expertise But this is fairly reasonable thing to expect and The diesel really small rate in the scheme of things. Yes so when i started to Learn about time or their black holes. I was amazed by how different in mass can be. They can be may be the massive wouldn't but they can also be The mass of Being or they can be Even even smaller so they can really be very very tiny. Yes oh so. That's really really small so this is sort of quantum fluctuations only universe Kind of getting Getting concentrated in vide- small areas But we believe those. Those primordial black holes emit nucleus. we Have to go back to stephen hawking for that stephen hawking wrote this seminal paper Which is about what we nowadays. Nowadays call hawking radiation so he demonstrated that any black hole regardless of what it is could be primordial black hole or a stellar. Nicole doesn't matter any black hole isn't really black because it meets radiations so radiation particles And the the process that we call evaporation so Because a black holes fundamentally gravity objects they would meet any particle that couples to raggedy including trees so It's the moment you have a black hole you do. Have hawking radiation and neutrinos are just that are expected. Part of hawking radiation. You're so caulking radiation so that that happens to every black hole even the even the supermassive ones right so i it said gentle phenomenon And so going to neutrinos now Don't typically thing neutrino site Caltrans and electrons are really well known. neutrinos are particles. Dad don't interact with The matter Espionage don't interact much with matters. We don't really see them. They don't really see them. And and so it's difficult to measure that's right and so so this could you give a. What does the history of neutrino vendor we. I understand such things existed. Let's see We go back to the twentieth century and the story goes That the father of neutrino sees Warfare he. He made the hypotheses of a new particle existing as a way to explain Some strange behavior of neutrinos produced by by nuclear decay so It's it's a long story but Let me just say that For a long time. Neutrinos who just the hypotheses and then around the mead of this twentieth century They would actually officer so we started to Know that this particles existed and But that was pretty much heat. So we didn't know much about the properties And one of these properties the mass which we still don't know i'm easy after all these decades but we still don't know if neutrinos have something like a magnetic went for example And something that we didn't learn until much later on is the fact. That neutrinos oscillate. That's that that sounds. That's something that we that were somehow established Turn of the sanctuary around the around the year. Two thousand really after after decades of of testing with the solar neutrino selling trainers. So there are still there are still a number of no on your trainers. One of them is the mass one and the other one is the The nature of the neutrinos being the iraq particles or miranda particles we She's kind of a fundamental cost. So there are that. That's that's that's related to the fundamental nature of the neutrino as particle break. So so they do. They have a mass but masses small. Do they have a chunk. Neutrinos don't have charge so they are electrically neutral and that's Comedy the biggest reason for for them to be a so allusive as you were mentioning earlier on especially in the in early. Nineteen hundreds all the particle detectors so basically a electro-magnetic detectors they were looking for charge or Magnetic behavioral some sort. So neutrinos don't have that and so they They only have the weak interaction At that that we know wolf and gravity of course and so that's why they They escape detection so so easily because their interaction is very weak. Yeah so so. That's sort of the beauty of neutrinos right so because they don't interact V can go back digits of years. Simple hats Perhaps become pickup one on earth and it would have travelled that distance through all sorts of things but would not have affected wider rate right. Yes and so so the other phenomenon of neutrino is that you mentioned that they also late so are they're failures of tinos they go back and forth. Yes it's It's actually a fairly Easy to this cried kwan to sonam on We know that In quantum mechanics there is this Particles described by these function which is called the wave function. And so the neutrinos could be on. Neutrino could be born as a say an extra and then it's quanta way function would evolve over time in a way that after sometime. The wave function is no longer a purely electron neutrino way function. But the has a little bit or even law actually of a different flavor. It could be a new one or tau. So what we observe in the actors. Is this change of flavor and perhaps the most striking demonstration of this phenomenon is solemn. Neutrinos because we know that the sun produces an extra treatments and It doesn't produce a new on and talion trainers so But here on earth we do Have evidence that the solar neutrino flags that we receive has some You wanna talion. Trina in it and that can only be explained by sedation and Actually after this other neutrino data showed this phenomenon. This was also confirmed by a saint men made experiments so it's a fairly established phenomenon it and so that the flavors are Electron new on tall. Yes that's right and so. Did you understand the vendor made in the sun for example there they are made as electron Neutrinos and by the time they reached the earth day the Immunes dot. Yes yes Impart young. that's that's what happens so ease. It always the case that they get a manufactured so to speak as as electoral neutrinos always. It depends on where they are born. There are places where neutrino sutter born in or flavors. A so it's it's it really varies with With the type of environment We are talking about okay. Okay and so in the people you say ph is this primordial black holes. We talked about radiates right. Handed and left handed dutra knows in equal amounts so anybody right-handed unless the cleaners. Okay let me see so Yes you say. Indicates of dirac neutrinos. pba Left neutrinos in equal amounts possibly increasing deceptive number noon pheno species nest. Yes is that explainable. Yes so right handed than left handed. Neutrinos that may take why to explain what that exactly means me. Just say that It's related to the neutrino mass. So if you're truly knows didn't have a mass which we know they do but if they didn't have a mouse They would only exist as left handed particles which means that basically their spin is Is anti aligned with the momentum and but if they have mass and the iraq particles There could be another type of neutrino which is right handed. Which where the This being ease aligned with a mentor other than anti line and so If you are iraq these these two different species could exist and so instead of having one species of neutrino emitted left-handed one Indicators of a massless trina if we have not suv nutrients than you would have to species and so. The black hole radiate war energy compared to The case when neutrinos don't amass so when we started working on this paper i was interested in this phenomenon that A lot of the literature having to do with a developer. Evaporation of primordial black couls. Consider the neutrinos as massless about. Now we know that they are massive. And so i thought well Sixty speaking at primordial black hole could radiate more energy than previously thought. So i found that aspect interesting and then sees you mention the possibility to increase the effective number of species. That's related to what it was talking about. So then you the black hole would ra- gate more neutrino States or more neutrino Species to spe pseudo speak and then Would increase the number of neutrinos per cubic centimeter Data we observe today so I'm kind of glossing over a lot of these days. But basically cosmology gives us a measurement of this and effective which is called the effective number two species. And if you have this right. Handed neutrinos coming from the primordial black holes. This number could be higher than than expected. And so that would be may be a i way to tell that maybe there are more black holes in the universe yet. So so the hawking radiation essentially creation coming out of black holes Expected defined Expected that over a long period of time. Black holes radiate away lap. Later ray out the mass or information that didn't do it And so this. Radiation is hockey. Radio station is it is a new park. Or is it. Fundamentally composed of neutrinos hawking radiation is made of every particle that no of so A black hole. A camera gate Pretty much everything. Photons neutrinos throngs You loans It said cetera but There is the catch here. The fact that a black hole has a temperature which is another Big achievement of stephen hawking to end and others To that the black hole is thermo dynamical object and so Basically the bigger the black hole the lower the temperature so if the temperature is really low The black hole wouldn't be able to immed- Very massive particles because they are thermal energy would be sufficient for that so because masses energy Mc squared right so because massey's energy If a black hole has too low of a temperature It wouldn't have its quantum energy It's it's Wouldn't be enough to produce the mass off a particular particle for example a proton may be too heavy to be produced by a really low tanto black home so so the beaker. The black called the lower the temperature. Yes ed so. So then can expect the bigger black holes to have more of a neutrino content in radiation. Yes because The bigger black holes would as i said be able to radiate the heavy particles and so they would only be able to radiate away the low mass particles and so there could be black holes that only emit photons gravitons and Neutrinos do a of sort of the distribution of this primordial black holes Isn't you know sort of everywhere. What is what do we know about you. Know some of the distribution of bbc's you mean spatial distribution like where they are now. I'm wondering just like the easy would do sort of look at the early universe will find them everywhere Probably at the beginning they would be a more or less uniformly distributed Bug in the universe. Today they would probably be Behaving like the dark matter. Does they would Be part of galactic halos In other words they would be they would class gravitationally on large structures like a like a galaxy placido galaxy so these call still around They would they would behave like like the dark matter down. So they would be in in halo. Galaxies would have by. Now have april would would they not have disappear because it far it depends on the mass That they have when they are born so their if their mass is less than a certain value that trying to remember Basically yes they would have to By now they would have completely evaporate did their masters larger than they will take longer to evaporate and they could still be around So they roughly speaking the dividing line between a black hole. Steve being around today or not. I think it's something like ten to fifteen grams fiery recall correctly into fifteen clams though So this paper. Eusebio obtained the diffuse flux of right hill. Neutrinos from his idea and so so. So so the nikkei actually act to build these neutrinos. They'd be flying here do pbs specifically In principle that's a possibility we Considered that for certain Masses of these black holes and certain density of this black holes the flux of neutrinos that they generate over time could be fairly large and so we could Detect these neutrinos If we had a very Power who attacked so Now life is never ideally in the sense that a real Ut detector have substantive issues like ground And so on. So at the end of the people we conclude that impact is giving given the limitations that current nutrient doctors have It may not really be possible to detect neutrinos trump mortgage black holes but people. That's a possibility and that alone is interesting. Yeah because they suggestion that this primordial black holes could be as as you mentioned could be part of the dark matter that yes to seeking. Is that still About us that has been. There has been a debate on these Kind of going back and forth in the scientific community The latest i heard is that Black whose could be part of the dark matter. Maybe even a large part but probably not they entire dark matter so a one hundred percent primordial Battery is a bit difficult to justify the day. experimental bowels that we already have constrained so various types but there could be scenarios where maybe a fraction of the dark matter. He's made of primordial black holes. I wanted to go into a ended up paper in twenty twenty supernova neutrinos directional sensitivity and prospects for dissertation here the export potential of current and future liquid cinta league neutrino detectors. I decade old town. Mass a localize a super a supernova neutrino signal into sky in douglas was feeding the core collapse nearby star tens to hundreds of english Coated and don't be constructed policy in the detector can be used to estimate a direction to the star so so this is now neutrinos from supernova and You so so we. We have Idea here that before this opened on what happens. If please open over a time period it is creating neutrinos that could pick up and and potentially get ready to see the super bowl. Yes that's what excites me The fact that Think about bitter jews. Beetlejuice is the most famous nearby star. That could go supernova anytime and we don't know when that's going to happen and If it wasn't for these neutrinos that our paper is about we will know until the style literally Collapses and and then soon after becomes superman but in this paper we we Show that before the star collapses which is the beginning of the supernova process We can detect these. These neutrinos That are used at that at that stage and so increase the pool we could know that You know tomorrow. These days beetlejuice exploding and that that would be quite exciting. Yeah it's beetlejuice is is red joy and reasonably close to was really big star. I can remember Cecilia there was some suggestion that It could go supernova within something one hundred fifty thousand years which is obliquely in cosmic time so it is getting ready to go to Supernova right yes. I am not you formed about exactly the number of years give or take but it's it's ready it's ready. It could be any time and any time any time for an astronomer muse anytime the next thousand soviet so we should. We should hold their breath. But it's ready could be tomorrow. It could be in a hundred years could supernova. I know that this is not part of the paper but could the beetlejuice supernova avenue adverse effect on north really know a supernova is very very spectacular event. it's it's a star that collapses so it implodes i and that explodes and then when he explodes It's very bright. In the case of bitter jews we could. We could see by naked-eye shore but in terms of A fact of each radiation and neutrinos in light on on us and on our daily activities. It wouldn't it. Wouldn't affect them in any way so it's a save Show to just enjoy without any worry. Great answer so you talking about supernova neutrinos so so can be actually detect neutrinos from supernova. What different from what we talked about in the previous people Different from pbs I'm not sure. Can you repeat yes. So the new teen emanating from a supernova different from the Neutrinos of expectancy from a primordial black hole. Yes the the different In many ways disney trails have higher energies. So it's much much easier to attack them and indicates will beat the jews. We would detect thousands or even more of dan millions. Probably of them Indiana so different in the way they are born because in our primordial black hole ordinary black hole The processes volcanoes the asian. Which which is a gravity phenomenon in a supernova. You're born out of the very hot and dense environment That the that that the star as after it has collapsed so star collapsing on its own way to become very dense and so In this very dense in hot environment nuclear processes take place that produce these nutrients. So i guess the main difference is that indicates supernova it's most nuclear phenomenon and in the call is really fundamentally a gravitational sonam. Okay you discover technique in this paper and you saved sin principle possible unique the identify the progenitor star so So the existing technology and ideas discussed in the paper viki see teacup a neutrino decode. Identify valid came from or what direction thing from embed you can go back and look at the in that direction if he find to supernova then you could say that the supernova that created in-principle Yes let me. Just say that There are situations and this is not one of them but there are situations where if you have one neutrino you can point to the pointing the sky. What came from in these case. It's a little more complicated. Because what really gives us. The information is the statistical distribution of these nutrients so we are talking about may be the tax in hundred a hundred Gable take from say be for example and What did detector really observe is not the neutrino is kind of a vector which is related to the products of these neutrinos so this neutrino sues interacts with the interact with the detector. And then out of this interaction you have a positive on the new thrown and those can be observed and you can you can create a factory using these two and then and then these rector will have a certain orientation but each each neutrino coming will give you a differently oriented vector but statistically if you look at the distribution of these factors you you can tell you can you can do for with a certain of course The direction of the neutrinos because these vectors are not uniformly distributed they are they have a non uniform distribution of the direction. And so using this information we can we can define a regional the sky where The new three could come from so we can. We cannot now down to a point but we can now down to maybe a cone of a few tens of degrees Width and then we look in that cone and see what stars that com and maybe be juicy one of them. Yeah so As you say you if you see a few Neutrinos Statistics bution of those will give us some some probability That it is in in some region of the sky. And then you say the paper You can then that if it is happening please open nola. You learnt other observational. Modalities multi messagero rations Invisible in radio and other other types of observations Do actually pick up more data so this is almost like a early alert system If it is in place right yes i would call it a very early I learned to because it's we're talking about maybe our worse or insert very fortunate cases. We are even talking about maybe day Before the assad goes supernova and. so that's enough time to plan for for it so a something that fascinated me When i heard about this from a from a an experimentalist is that there is a human factor which was not aware of but The factories so if you have come up with thirty minutes to plan for watching supernova this may not be enough because it just takes stein to make phone calls and get a hold of people and and decide what to do. Come to a consensus in that. I saw in addition to technical things. Like okay have to maybe turn your telescope Direction which takes time. But i i was really fascinated by the human factor. Those things that if you had style we'd be you can kind of gathered. Relevant people decide something but if you have thirty minutes or or or minutes maybe not so. Yeah yeah i wondered. If such a earlier system is in place Perhaps could be something programmatic. Crises is picking up And you have some you know. Maybe some ai techniques or something like that that identifies the region and it goes. Programmatic returned the telescopes look. Yes yes exactly so. There could be a protocol in place For that so e if a telescope was suitable for observing a nearby supernova which which is not always the case than than now that we showed that it's possible to know beforehand if a star is going to go supernova then there could be some sort of protocol in place already so that when the alert comes which is we can just activated the protocol and oriented telescope. maybe automatically will in some sort of Organized way yeah as you say if you remove humans from the process it becomes not better there is actually already working this direction It's called this new two point. Oh a network which has to do with Exactly these using neutrinos as alert for the astronomy community and That has to do with exactly a creating alerts and also creating protocols for how to react to an alert rate. I want to end the people that just came out. it concordant scenario for the observation of neutrino from the tidal disruption. Even eight hundred twenty nine hundred ninety s t You say be induced at phenomenology concordance canadia with the logistic jet of for the title disruption event Between ninety s jesmyn proposes a source of the astrophysical neutrino event. Ice cube So the title disruption even this is star getting cooler into a black hole getting Getting sucked in rate is that the is that even up to the match yes This is something that we We had about be in in popular science stalks What what happens if you get too close to black hole and It's kind of scary. So the answer is you would be ripped apart because your feet will be pulled in with a strong force than your head and these. This is what happens to two statehouse. Use the star gas to close than by guests Ripped the park. Which is what the tied is option means and so instead of a star Rotating around a black hole we just have a stellar stellar That dr intially. I created by the black hole and so This is something that The happy neighbor cops serve did so so we have. This does happen this particularly Eighty twenty nine hundred ninety s and Bequeath actually see a new cleaners from that particular even so tightness. Deduction events are fairly well established phenomenon in astronomy. We have many of them served They they are Fairly a common plays events But what's special about this particular one. Eighty two thousand nineteen years. G is that We could let's say It could have Produced on neutrino that was detected a ice cube so eighty twenty nine hundred ninety s. She is the first either direction event. For which is coincident. Neutrinos detected a dice. Cube in queens. This coincidence is likely to be accidental. So on approachability estimate tells us that these coins. This is pretty causal not accident so eighty twenty nine hundred ninety. The g could be the parent of this neutrino. And that's that's that's a i. That's very interesting. Yes i skew. is a is a big ice cube in the in. The south is I'm not sure it's exactly cuba. But it's it's the biggest block of is which has been Eastern With values Small detectors So it's it's an array of swarner detectors but yeah it's basically a big block of ice which has been transformed into a detective and so so the idea that this high energy neutrinos from what they were System montemar even that happened Out there this high energy neutrinos passing through that ice q. believe some telltale signs All of that happening and yuxi picked up Then began back Just like you were talking about the previous creeper begin. Please back to a region so this is one of those cases where you can tell from a single neutrino of course the with with a narrower where you can tell the point in the sky where three neutrino kate from. It's doable with one single neutrino because this high energy neutrinos when they enter the is They produce ca a shower so they kind of illuminate. They you me nate. The is but the do it in a way which is very much Beat so and then and then the direction of the the direction of bigotry knows. We have a pretty good accuracy often. How often could be a pickup something like that. Do we have an estimate of how often that would happen. Meaning ice cube detects something like this. Every year ice cube the tax Of the order of ten high-energy neutrinos froth outside our galaxy. Tadesse the number for the entire crop of neutrinos that ice cube has It went we talk about tidal disruption events in the specific these are fairly rare phenomena and so they estimated that maybe a few times so percent of the entire neutrino flux the thais cubeys of serving could be from tidal disruption events. Not much more than that. So we are talking about less than half of the total flats being to tell this option events okay and so the tug disruption burned as as you mentioned It starts getting clipped applaud and pulled back into a into a a black hole but this ten percent. Do they have to be these braces as they call it. The things that have a jet that is sort of lying towards us. Is that it necessarily condition for these types of high energy neutrinos. It's it's a plausible scenario Let me just say that. There is an important difference between blazers in tidal disruption events. In the fact that the ablaze is something that has a jet. She's always on so the jets kinda kerman feature of of these particular galaxy but the title is adoption. Event is transient events. Saw dotcoms creates the accretion. This accretion of the star of the black hole produces flair is flair can last year or two but then it would just fade away so There could be jet and in fact in our paper we present where there is a jet so they partisans the user chat But if there is a jet in tiger disruption event. That's a transient suggested. That's born when This starts to create the stellar debris. And then it's on for months or years and then and then shuts off and it has two point in our direction as you as you mentioned because otherwise we would. We would see the trains your so this high energy neutrinos sillier how. How many orders of magnitude are we talking about coming to the one set you pick up. Let's say from the sun I'm not sure about the question. Can you maybe rephrase yet. So when you say this high energy neutrinos that is coming from let's say a tidal disruption events or something like that How much comedy orders of magnitude more energy Outdoors come to you. Know the ones that might be created the sun a lot menu of this magnitude so It is a big difference. So the sun produces new three meals. over a wide range of energies Higher energy neutrinos from the sun reach energies of the order of ten am pt and mega awards and for the ice cream. Neutrinos we are talking about one hundred of the older one hundred t. v. or even thousand teams. Which would be p so. Let's say maybe eighty tortoise magnitude finding the mass rife or okay and so this e. v. measure it is actually measuring the mass of the neutrino of newfield. Now these these neutrinos are have such a Such high energy that basically It's impossible to know their mass Because because as i said massey's energy so they talk energy of neutrino Detected is to be so high that that percentage view to its mass east so tiny that this practice mutual so i was wondering if we know the energy couldn't be sort of back computer to save the mass is or it doesn't follow The reasoning is a bit different and The way to sink about this is perhaps they let me see the formula for energy particle Which used the rest energy Applause the kinetic energy and So connecticut is so high that he thought the overwhelms direct energy. So it's it's and of course every time you measure the energy when three no. There is a narrow associated with the measurement so You we can't really we can't really tell what What led the boss of the detroit news but both roughtly this. This appears to be sort of an early warning system for many many things right topped the supernova the in the title disruption events producing heightened plano's So this could be sort of inundated with a monkey message. Observations protocols as you mentioned that gives us a higher success. Wait suspect. I would think certainly nominated be one right That's the power of multi messenger astronomy the integration of different signals coming from Photos tree knows navigation waves Causing me craze and Danger plays very powerful emmanuel cases and maybe supernova case is the most striking Xenos come first. But that's not always the case So in the indicates of tidal disruption events Did you know that was observed. Came about five months later than the initial dhammika looser version of the tidal disruption events so It's if it can go both ways. neutrinos can be early alert or they only alert could be for example a radio salvation or or an x-ray use ovation and then and then the neutrino attacked or could Focus a surge in that direction as see what they find which which has actually been done ice cube sometimes. Does these these archival. Search this on the basis of others from From for example x ray or gamma ray surveys interested. Exciting eighty that said a lot to be owned It seems It seems like these till don't know all the production mechanisms for neutrinos but if we have robust with to pick them up on than we can place them back and and talk asking questions What might be there definitely So yes so. People celia the next five years Wanted the aid is that you believe Be will make a significant crocus in this Innovative neutrinos then two different areas. That a very promising One is Broadly speaking Manmade nutrients so there is. There is a big push especially hitting the united states to build Create very powerful beams of trainings and then these beams are manmade. So we know that very well. We know that energy we know the composition and we can use them to learn about The properties of treatments and then That other men bead neutrino experiments where Scientists look for the between months so that's also very promising In something i really. I really excited about that. That may be a furious novel with noble the neutrino mass us from these very high position laboratory experience. Then there is the whole Topic of neutrinos as part of the mouth of mike messenger astronomy and in that area. I think what was was to look forward. To among other scenes is the interplay gravitational waves shock waves. You still Somehow a science of its own into a large extent but there are so many possible connections. We've neutrinos tidal disruption adoption events should produce reputation ways so baranov shoot us gradation ways So so there is. There is a a lot of potential there which is still unexplored in and that's where i see myself Working on in the next few years you adjust very quickly The do gravitational waves travel bid closest and new ashtrays and so if If they both are produced in In uneven they're expected to arrive on earth close to simultaneously. It depends on the timing of the production if the answer is yes the waves ending a knows are born at the same time which may not be exactly true because the physics that governs tation waves is different from the one that that governs neutrinos. So but the difference in timing would be the difference Accumulated that birth But but the two were were generated genetically the same time. They should arrive the same time. Just thinking this a systematic difference in the production time than guan lorries given early warning for the other. But that doesn't seem to do a case right. There could be cases where significant lag in the production of rotation way with respect to the production of the tree nose and one example is. We haven't touched on this before but let me just nation mergers so if we have if we have a merger for example we have maybe a merger of a neutron stars or black hole neutral star before the merger happens so when the two objects that kind of still approaching each other we should start observe serving ways and this is what this is what has been seen so Delight experiment observes these these nominal But if we have a merger After the merger has occurred and the two objects have become one than a. Dan could be the formation of of over an accretion disk and he secretion Trainers which we can which we can back so the neutrino We come After they initially asian waves and so relation as would be the alert for the neutrino. That does excellent. your this has been great as celia. thanks so much complaining pleasure. Okay thank you bye. This is a scientific sense. Podcast providing unscripted conversations with leading academics and researchers on variety of topics. If you like to sponsor this podcast please reach out to info. At scientific sense dot com.