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"We have such a complete story to tell you because Brady's emails got hat, but ROY d. story is just one of many examples of tempted influence peddling and the Trump administration. It's important to note that ROY d. has not been convicted or even accused of any crimes in relation to President Trump, but there's a pattern of behavior that's becoming all too familiar WNYC and propublica. We've been asking ourselves if what we're seeing in the Trump administration is actually worse than what we've seen during past presidencies. Right. I mean, Trump ran with the slogan drain the swamp. So to put this in context. Sarah, what a second, let me get my phone's on. We caught up an expert in international corruption. So, yeah, I'm Sarah cheese. I encountered corruption living on the ground Afghanstan where turned out to be the most important issue driving the conflict. There chains was an NPR reporter. She ended up in Afghanistan working on economic development there and wrote a book about her experience called thieves of state. She studied corruption in Nigeria, Egypt, Tunisia. She's advised the military and the joint chiefs of staff in Afghanistan. Chase a corruption. All the time. Amang officer wants demanded. She pay a bribe to make a Bank deposit. Man doesn't really happen in the US, but what's going on in the United States as far as I'm concerned is an American version of phenomenon that I've been seeing all over the world which is to say networks made up of top government officials captains of industry out. Note criminals woven. Together are hijacking government and economic function and bending it to serve the purposes of their personal enrichment and not the public interest. She says, these networks are key indicator of corruption. It's not an accident that, for example, we're seeing group of people attempting to profit from Trump's presidency who are connected to the president, but to each other, like members of a club, you've got in the Trump administration, a much higher level of overlap between private and public sector members of the network then has typically been the case in the past, but and this is key. President Trump is really taking the veil off of practices that have been moving in this direction anyway. Chase has corruption in the US a bipartisan problem. We've got the electorate doesn't even vote in presidential elections. I've been asking people why and get answers like will they're gonna put who they want in office. Anyway, I say we'll what's rigged about the system too much money. I mean, these are absolutely unanimous answers. You've made a convincing case that the American system has been a lot sicker than most people have thought for a long time. It looks to me like we're sort of sliding down a mountain and then with Trump we've fallen off a cliff. I think that's exactly the right way to put it is that we've been flying down this mountain and mountains are not, you know, just gently rolling things. Mountains includes sudden and violent drop offs. <music> coming up on Trump eight. The numbers. Like that. The running down then. The air deal Trump keeps those around him silent. Trumping is an open investigation. Have you seen a Trump nondisclosure agreement him? You perhaps even signed one yourself. Email us at tips at Trump. In podcast dot org, find out how to send secure documents that Trump Inc podcast dot org. Trumping is produced by Meg Kramer. The associate producer is Alice wilder. The technical director is Bill moss original music by Hans Brown, Charlie, Herman, and Eric Manzke are the editors. We had helped this episode from Catherine Sullivan. Jake Pearson in Gillam propublica Robin field says propublica managing editor, Jim Schachter as the vice president for news at WNYC and Steve invert the editor in chief at propublica."