Zillow, Ebay, R. Kelly discussed on Solvable



Ecosystem negatively. Brought to you by discover. When you have a simple question about your credit card, getting an answer should be simple, right? But then you call your credit card company, and you can't reach a real person. How can I assist you? Speak with a representative. I'm sorry. We don't have live representatives. What? Connect to a representative. Did you say representative? Yes. I'm sorry. There are no representatives available. How can I help? At discover, they believe managing your credit cards should be uncomplicated. That's why when you call discover with the question about your credit card, discover gives you the option to speak with the real person based in the U.S. day or night 24 7. They also give you the option to find help by messaging them through the website or the mobile app. Because having the option to connect with the real live person beats dealing with the recorded message any day of the week. That's just common sense. 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Adrian, one of the things I really enjoyed in your book was that you talked about when a call out can be useful. You say, call outs can feel most powerful when they are used with their tactical intention for those with less positional political economic or other power to demand accountability to stop harm or abuse. Which I appreciate and I think you laid that out perfectly with the way that you were talking about R. Kelly. How do we make the distinction between call out cancellation and consequences? Because I hear all three of them being used interchangeably, especially in media, and especially by people who are trying to get themselves out of consequences. Oh, I love it. I think we're still in the birthing stages of figuring out what all these things are. And that's why people are like, it's a whole culture of this. It's a whole culture of them. I'm like, yes, this is in the culture. You know, we are in some ways cancellation is in the culture, right? And the culture is steeped in a punitive culture. So it's like cancellation is just the peak of a certain kind of wave that's happening in the culture. But it's not the only thing that's happening in the culture. And I think what we actually need is an accountability culture or a culture of consequences, where it's like, oh, it's true that you actually did this thing. We know that it's true. And here's something. Here's what a consequence can actually look like. When I think of a call out, the call out functions as an isolating tool instead of a tool of community. And I think that's where when some people use the term call in. The idea is like it's actually supposed to be bringing people deeper into community into a space where they can actually be held versus something where it's like we actually don't want this person to have access to community. I think a consequence, though, to me, a consequence is when it's like, oh, I can draw a direct line. I really can see this consequence makes sense based on what happened. You know what this person did. And I think a lot of times what we're missing is, there's no veracity around what actually happened. We don't know, right? And then there's no clarity on what is the consequence? Is it taking one year out of the spotlight? You know, is it taking a year off of Instagram or whatever? Because that's about what I've been noticing as the patterns. People kind of dip out for a year. And then you see them come back like everything's great, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We don't talk about that other thing. Yeah, we don't, you know? And a lot of and they just move on. So I'm like, we need I'm always interested in what actually works. If that strategy worked, you know, if it was like, dang. We called these people out and rape just stopped. Like, isn't that happening anymore? This really worked. You know, Miriam kaba is someone that I always point people towards. She is an incredible teacher around abolition, particularly prison abolition. And she really talks about that long pattern of harm doing continues in spite of this system of punitive justice, you know, in spite of all those efforts. And she's like, we should just be focused on how we end the harm. That's the only measure. Did the harm end or did it not end? And I think that helps in a lot of these conversations because people get into some moral high ground space, and I'm like, it's not working. You know? Fundamentally, it's not working. So it can't be the right way. I can talk about this with you for. Or is I really appreciate you writing this book. Adrian rebrand. Thank you so much for being with us today. Wow, thank you for having me. This was a great conversation. Adrian Marie Brown is the author of we will not cancel us and other dreams of transformative justice. She's the co host of the podcast. How to survive the end of the world, Octavia's parables and emergent strategy. Listeners, if you want to learn more about the solutions we talked about today, I highly recommend Adrienne's book. We will not cancel us. And you could find links to her other books as well as articles on conflict resolution, restorative justice practices, truth, and reconciliation, nonviolent communication, and to more information about the leaders and mentors Brown mentioned in this conversation. They're all in our show notes. Solvable is produced by Jocelyn Frank. Research by David jah. Booking by Lisa Dunn, editing help from Keisha Williams. Very special thanks to tanzina Vega for pointing me to Adrian Marie brown's work. Our managing producer is Sasha Matthias, and our executive producer is Mia Labelle. I'm Ronald young junior. Thanks for listening. At discover, they believe managing your credit card should be uncomplicated. That's why with discover, card holders can get their questions answered by a real person based in the U.S., day or night, 24 7. They can also get help by using the discover app, or messaging them on the website, because having the option to connect with a real live person beats dealing with a recorded message any day of the week. That's just common sense. So go ahead and give them a call. Send them a message online, or connect with them on the app. They look forward to speaking with you live. Discover. Learn more at discover dot com. Deals are heating up right now if you're ready for it, get 0% APR on select models all month long on approved credit. Remember if they can't beat any other Ford dealers advertise price by at least 500 bucks. You get a thousand bucks on the spot. Shop 24 7 a period for dot com to get your deal started now. 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