Put to john measham two years ago. One hundred twenty countries in the world count china's as they main trading partner sixty eight country survey signed up china's building mode initiative. How many countries forcibly are resisting china's expansion. Show these a your words so if far more nations are dependent on china trade. Then resisting china question paid us shouldn't camber think again about its stance towards ally just tried patna. Well it suited straight very well to join the china party and we did together with all the other countries who just mentioned no doubt about it and wanted that gravy train to continue. Nobody wanted to interrupt that. It was interrupted and again. We got back to the thunderclap. Emmott of the revelation. That sam dusty are you could buy australian senate illegally What's changed in those two years. Thome is that australia has realized and a growing number of other countries have now realised and china has been very blunt in telling the world especially since kovic turned up that it seeks to dominate and countries are now having to y priorities assess the tactics assistance over anti and many more countries including the thirty nine. We talked about already just this week. A having to distance themselves from china and even confront china thornley what now given the widespread in public criticism of beijing's conduct in recent years david brophy. How do you think camera should deal with china. I don't think policy decision should be calibrated to get any particular response from china. I mean that's not my main interest here. I'm arguing that the policies we're pursuing a bad force stralia And and i think we should start to undo some of the damage. That's already been done. I mean i think the foreign interference legislation has been bad for civil liberties. I don't wanna live in a country that boots out foreign academics as we have done on the basis of vague suspicions that they're part of some foreign conspiracy. That's the kind of behavior is associated with china. I'm to stop the sabre-rattling we need to take responsibility for the politics on outside that his Provoking confrontation now alongside that. I'd be very happy for politicians to start a conversation about what we can do to help people suffering repression in a place like china or elsewhere but we have to realize great-power rivalries not going to be a vehicle for advancing human rights. I'm much more likely we're going to be turning a blind eye to human rights abuses as we assemble a coalition of countries For some kind of misguided containment strategy towards china. Okay so stop. The mongering paid a hajjah. If i had thirty seconds i would say number. One shore up australian democratic institutions. Let's have a federal anti corruption commission fix federal funding and donations. We ourselves the greatest enemy. Our democracy number one number two embrace the chinese australian population. They're an asset. We have to take care of them. Treasure them they are part of us and we have to keep them out most at the top of their minds as we deal with. The totalitarian political movement called the chinese communist party finally straight needs to develop a strategy for dealing with china. We've so far. Had a series of responsive reactive moves. We do not have a cogent overarching strategy for dealing with china and we need one painter. David a lively debate thanks. Mustang being on between the lines always a pleasure. Tom pancake down. That was paid a author of red zone. China's challenge and australia's future and david brophy author of china panic. Australia's alternative to paranoia and pandering. Well that's it for the show and remember this or pasta thirds including last week's interviews on australia and climate change with marianne wilkinson and greg sheridan just go to abc dot net. I use slash iran and follow the promised to between the lines. Or of course you can just go to the abc. Listen up where you can download us for free. All wherever you downloaded your is online. I'm tom switzer. And thanks. so much for listening