Volker, Andre, Twenty Fifth discussed on Politics and Public Policy Today


It can be taken that way I'm not sure if I it seems like a reasonable conclusion and if that is the case that would be consistent with the text message that ambassador Volker sent to Andre your mock right before the call is that right seemingly so now you you've testified in your deposition that a White House visit an oval office visit is very important to presidents aligned ski why is that the show of support for presents Lynskey still a brand new president frankly a new new politician on the Ukraine political scene looking to establish his bona feet is as a as a regional and maybe even a world leader wouldn't want to have a meeting with the United States the most powerful country in the world and Ukraine's it most significant benefactor in order to be able to implement his agenda it would provide him with some additional legitimacy at home yes so just to summarize in this July twenty fifth call between the presidents of the United States and Ukraine president trump demanded a favor of presidents a Lansky to conduct investigations that both of you acknowledge war for president trump's political interest not the national interest and in return for his promise of a much desired White House meeting for presidents a landscape limit is that an accurate summary of the excerpts that we just looked at yes miss Williams yes all of them in the U. immediately reported this call to the NSC lawyers why did you do that at this point I had already been tracking this initially I whatever different described as a alternative nerve false narrative and I was certainly aware of the fact that it was our turn to reverberate gain traction the fact that it in the July tenth call ended up being pronounced fire a public official official investors on when I had me alerted to this and I was subsequent to that report I was invited to follow up with any can other concerns to Mr Eisenberg gonna discuss that July tenth meeting in in a moment but when you say alternative false narratives are you referring to the two investigations that president trump referenced in the call yes now at some point did you also discuss how the written summary of the call records should be handled with the and it's the lawyers there was a founder report there was a discussion in the legal shop on the best way to manage a transcript yes what did you understand they concluded my understanding is that this was viewed as a sensitive transcript and to avoid leaks and the fire call the term properly or something along the lines of preserve the integrity of the transcript it should be segregated trustmark group of folks to preserve the integrity of the transcript what it what about me I'm not sure I I I yeah I mean it seems like a legal term among tourney but it was I didn't take it as anything in the Ferris I just I understood that they wanted to keep it into in a smaller group if there was really interested in preserving the integrity of the transcripts don't you think they would have accepted your correction of a recent should have been included not necessarily the way these edits occur are they they go through like everything else a approval process I made my contribution it was cleared by Mister Morris and then when I returned it you know sometimes that doesn't happen there and there were our administrative errors I think that in this case I didn't see it didn't when I first saw the transcript without that the two substantive items I had attempted include I didn't see that as far as I just saw it as a okay no big deal you know these might be meaningful but it's not that big a deal you said to substantive issues what was the other one now there was a reference and and section so on page for the top paragraph I'll let me you find the right spot okay Alexander been men of the National Security Council questioning by democratic counsel Daniel Coleman are you can look into it lips are there are videos so if I recall the recordings recordings instead of in a let's see is there should be a bush should have said and to what you heard that there are recordings correct did you ultimately learn where the call record was put I understood that it was being segregated into a separate system separate secure system why would why would be put on a separate secure system this is are definitely not unprecedented but at times are you if you want to limit access to a smaller group of folks you put on the secure system to ensure that a smaller group of people with access to the secure system out at can't you also limit the number of people who can access it on the regular system you can do that by to the best of my recollection the decision was made for frankly on the fly after my E. after the fact I can after I conveyed my concerns to Mr Eisenberg Mr always came in he hadn't heard the entire conversation and when it was mentioned that it was sensitive it was kind of on the fly decision to just segregated this other system Mr Eisenberg and Mister Ellis or the and I see lawyers correct but it was your understanding that it was not a mistake to put it on the highly classified system is that right I'm not sure I understand was it was it intended to be put on the highly classified system by the lawyers or was it a mistake that it was put there I think it was intended to but again it was intended to prevent leaks and to limit access no you testified it both of you about the April twenty first call a little earlier and and colonel than men you indicated that you did include in your your talking points the idea of Ukraine rooting out corruption but that president trump did not mention corruption I want to go to the White House read out from the April twenty first call and at the I'm not gonna read the whole thing but you see the highlighted portion where it says root out corruption yes so in in the end this read out was false is that right that's thanks maybe that's a bit of our our it's not entirely accurate but now I'm not sure if I would describe as false it was consistent with US policy and these items are used as messaging's tools also source even that goes out it in addition to no category weeding out the meeting itself is also a messaging platform to indicate what is important with regard to US policy so it is a part of U. S. official policy that Ukraine should root out corruption even if president trump did not mention it in the twenty first April twenty first phone calls that right certainly and he also did not mention it in the July twenty fifth phone call is that right correct so even though it was included in is talking points for the April twenty first call and presumably even though you can't talk about it for the July twenty first call it was not included in either is that right for there to be April twenty first call not mention it in either rather correct so when the president says now that he held up security assistance because he was concerned about rooting out corruption in Ukraine that concern was not expressed in the two phone conversations that he had with presidents a landscape earlier this year is that right correct now miss Williams you testified that earlier that after this able twenty first call president trump asked vice president pants to attend presidents a Lansky's inauguration is that right that's correct and that on may thirteenth you were just informed by the chief of staff's office that vice president pence should not will not be going at her request of the president right that's what I was informed yes and you didn't know what had changed from April twenty first two may thirteenth is that right no not in terms of that decision what kind of a man since you you in particular a little bit more perhaps than miss Williams was a broader portfolio focuses on Ukraine I want to ask you if you were aware of the following things that happen from April twenty first two may thirteenth were you aware that ambassador you've on of its was abruptly recalled from Ukraine in that time yes were you aware that president trump I'm sorry to correct it so she was a call to prior Missy so she I beg notification occurred towards the end our end of April and she was finally recalled and I'm a time frame I think may twentieth if I recall correctly so she learned about it after April twenty first on April twenty four fourth is that right correct and were you aware that president trump had a telephone call with president Putin during this time period in early may I was and were you aware that Rudy Giuliani had planned a trip to go to Ukraine to pressure the Ukrainians to initiate the two investigations that president trump mentioned on the July twenty fifth call in this time period I was aware that he was traveling there and that he was he had been promoting the idea of these investigations I want to move now to that July tenth meeting that you reference colonel than men what exactly did ambassador Sunland say when the cranium officials raised the idea of a White House meeting as I recall he refer to specific investigations that Ukrainians would have to deliver in order to get the these meetings and what happened to our house meeting what happened to the broader meeting after he made that reference I thank Mister Bowman of very abruptly ended the meeting and did how did did you have any conversations with ambassador Bolton about this meeting I know I did not did you follow ambassador Simon and the others to the ward room for a meeting follow up there was a a photo opportunity that we I a leveraged in order to demonstrate your support software the White House visit demonstrating uses your support for Ukraine and the new national security adviser was attacked technocrat and then after that we went down to or a short post meeting parlor debrief where the investigations the specific investigations that ambassadors online reference in the larger meeting also discussed in the ward room meeting they were what ambassador Sunland say ambassador Simon referred to investigations into the divide and Sabri's ninety thousand sixteen how did you respond if at all I am I said that disagrees request to invent are to conduct these meetings was inappropriate these investigations was inappropriate and had nothing to do with national security policy was ambassador Volker in this meeting as well I don't recall specifically I believe is there for at least a portion of time I don't recall his there for that the whole meeting was where was this statement made in front of the Ukrainian officials hi I believe there was some discussion prior to the fire to the Ukrainians leaving now when it was apparent there were some discord between the senior folks about her someone and other White House staff myself they were asked to step out so I don't recall if they were there for the for the entire discussion the senior White House staff you're referring to does that include Fiona hill your immediate supervisor at the time correct now you said you also reported this incident to the NSC lawyers out right correct and what was their response our John Eisenberg said that he he took he took our notes while I was talking and he said that he would look into it why did you report this meeting in this conversation to the NSC lawyers because our it was inappropriate and following that the meeting I had a short conversation following that the post meeting meeting in the wardroom at a short conversation with ambassador correction doctor hill and we discussed that the idea of I need to report this so am I correct colonel than men that at least no later than July tenth meeting the Ukrainians had understood or at least heard that the oval office meeting that they so desperately wanted was conditioned on these specific investigations into bury some and the twenty sixteen election that was the first time I was aware of the Ukrainians being approached directly by a government official and directly linking the White House meeting to the investigations correct miss Williams you testify to that in your opening statement that you attended the September first meeting between vice president pants and presents a Lansky in Warsaw is that right that's correct what was the first thing that presents a Lansky asked vice president pence about at that meeting president once he asked the vice president about the status of security assistance for Ukraine because he had seen the political article in other news reporting that the security assistance was being held and you testified in your deposition that in that conversation presidents alliance he emphasized that these military assistance the security assistance was not just important to assist you crane in fighting a war against Russia but that it was also symbolic in nature what did you what did you understand him to mean by that president once he explains that more than just equally with the financial and physical value of the assistance that it was the symbolic nature of that assistance that really was the show of US support for Ukraine and four Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity and I think he was he was he was stressing that to the vice president's really underscore the need for the security assistance to be released and that if the United States was holding the security assistance is it also true then that Russia could see that as a sign of weakening US support for Ukraine and take advantage of that I believe that's what the present president once he was was indicating that any signal or sign that US support was.

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