Australia, Julie Suarez, Prime Minister discussed on Between The Lines


Before Menzies came to power. There was lives. Ben chiefly. He was asked sixteenth prime minister, he came to power after John curtains death towards the end of World War Two now when you think of bench easily, what comes to your mind. Do you think of he's lodge, scowl immigration agenda, summarize with that wonderful question populate or perish? Or do. You think you'd these him Bishop program of such reforms and nation building schemes some psych culminated in planes to nationalize the banks. Will my next guest says chiefly had a cane interest in post will ISSA. He understood better the most ladies at the time, the old colonial order was ending and that Australia had to come to terms with dramatic change in our region, chiefly told shed Britishness and embraced true internationalism. Now. Julie Suarez is author of jibe. Chiefly and. Internationalists just out with 'em you pay. Hello. Julie. Welcome to Iran. Thank you. Tell lovely debate here. Now, there's been award range of scholarly literature on chiefly now you distinguish yourself by doing that chiefly was an odd and internationalised house. Well, I'm actually quoting him from speech that he gave in nineteen forty seven in which he said that he had been an ardent advocate full international organizations, because he believed that through them we were engaging in a great human experiment, which is designed to prevent the catastrophes that result from walls and financial economic depressions. He was huge -ly influenced by the great, depression and will will one and he saw the impact that the warhead. And also the impact that the great depression head, and he didn't want those to be repeated as far as growing up in Beth assed. He was well aware that Australia was very dependent on we'll try, and that's and that's something very very interesting. About him because he's somewhat different to usual trade union leaders because he understood that strategy was depend on world trade and commodities such as wool, and wait, and that makes him very very unusual in terms of the labor movement. And you spend quite a bit of your book on narrow the in years later the time what's a significance of the relationship between. Chiefly and narrow will they they basically had the same worldview both of them rejected that Cold War view of the world that the Americans and the British were pushing chiefly biologically he agreed with narrow that the primary objects. I of the British commercial policy should be to create in countries, exposed communist, influence, social conditions and living standards under which would no longer be likely that communism could flourish. So basically, hey, sighing and sighing also both of them agreed. When they mitt. At the prime minister's conference in London in nineteen forty nine. They rejected that a military intervention. Instead, they said that social conditions living standards had to improve. So you'll only is chiefly is taking issue with this sort of Cold War mentality. That's really starting to develop in certainly Washington. And indeed London during this period, but didn't chiefly indeed he's external affairs minister ever. But if it they clearly supported the creation in the building of the UN as you document in. At the same time to be fatally threat. The light forties deny seek to enjoin Washington in some kind of security pact for the Pacific that deed that yes, yes. But they weren't successful. But eventually with as they did and ever try that it supported delighted support the US law. So I mean, couldn't you argue then that Shiffling if it were if you like realists, plying, the gripe power politics the very same time. I espoused liberal international's principles. You could you could argue that except I think if you look at chiefly you really really need to say that he wasn't internationalised and he did support the United Nations he thought that collective security through the United Nations was the way to go. How would you explain chief lease continued support for imperial defence, even as couldn't his predecessor he continued to insist on it working bidder for Austrian interest in the? Pacific petra. Well, it's quite curious because it does seem strange chiefly with his Arush ancestry would embrace Britishness. But he was a great believer in democracy and Nazism, head represented an enormous threat to democracy in the British. He said had poured it blood and treasury fought for human liberty and freedom an enduring that Great Britain was now on tonight's financially. And unless something was done to restore economic stability. The Buddhist paper would have appeared victory which remained that all these sufferings and sacrifices would have been in vain. There's never mind. He would argue that chiefly was a creature of culture, and that he would have subscribed to this notion of Britishness in a in social psychology. Or I think my British rice patriotism, Julie, couldn't chiefly lock predecessors. And indeed, certainly he's immediate success. Menzies couldn't people are chiefly at the time. See australia. As a bastion of Britishness searching security in that unfamiliar Asia Pacific world, except there is a speech by nine hundred forty four which has been misquoted by some historians who it said that more and more strange coming to the realization that the political futures people was cost in the Pacific. However, they found little sympathy for the point of view in London and strategy felt very much alone. Because the intelligence that thou providing to the British enter the Americans was not hated they felt very much alone because of that, and they realize I had a part to play in the Pacific, but strategy intelligence, and there was a large amount of intelligence that we gained about our Niger's that it wasn't paid attention to by the British and and the Americans so when chiefly in curtain describe the stralia as quote. A best June of British speaking rice that that was just language in reality are actually more guys with the is Pacific chiefly was for sure because he he saw for example. India he sought that India would lead the nations he also saw India later on as a huge democracy, and the say sorting terms of security in the region. It would provide a walk against communism. He also so nations as potential trading partners. And he said that this was a huge opportunity for stray. And you might see a lot about chief lease rejection of the then British Prime minister Clemente's requests for the British government's Wisden union policy. What's the name of that? Will I think it really confirms? The fact that chiefly had very different view of the world site to. British Prime minister at Lee, and he would I mean, the west noon was was saying as a European bulwark against communism who is chiefly saying Australia as being part of civic Indo Pacific region and have to use that term in an interview that he gave with giant Sanni an Indian journalist. So he has a very very different view of strata, and it surrounds and its neighbors to Egli, and he couldn't see the sense the ustralia should join be part of the western on your sign. Gone shipley. Supported substantial Australian economic assistance to a batted post will British economy. This was in the form of I think it was strolling bulk purchases of British goods so with that contradicts your faces. It doesn't really because as I said previously. Chiefly a great believer in democracy and Britain had stood up alone and fought the Nazis who represented an enormous. Threat democracies and the result was at Great Britain was on its nice financially and economic stability needed to be restored to Britain. And that's that would be why he supported this. And on another night. You could argue certainly that under chiefly Australia supported the Indonesians against the Dutch. Although you could say that was only off the way to the realize, I shouldn't those European empires. Weren't going to flood back into the region after World War Two will leave very early realized that the imperial will was ending. And I've got a speech that he gave to an off the record speech league to journalists in October nine and forty five and this is just after become prime minister where he accused the Dutch of opportunity realism, and what he said that the Dutch would doing that. I thought that I could let the allies mop-up the Japanese and then the Dutch could move in and. Retake the colony but shoo flee oppose this. He understood that Australia needed to be friends with intonation, and he understood that the imperial world was ending. My guest is Julie Suarez. She's the author of jibe a chiefly and Arend internationalists. That's just outwith immu p Julie chiefly time in power of coincides with the Truman presidency in the United States, Harry Truman, of course, enunciated the Cold War doctrine of Kentucky. I think you have a photo of Truman with chiefly on the cover of your book was chiefly also a cold warrior was he a pacifist. Or is it more complicated? He wasn't a pacifist. He was not a cold warrior. He he rejected that Cold War view of the world that the Americans and the British were pushing he thought that it was much better for Asian countries to improve social conditions, and they live in standards, and if that occurred, then communism could not flourish. And you could argue that during this period, this is the nineteen forties. So the couldn't and chiefly ear that period essentially between the Menzies prime minister ships from forty one to forty on. It was bird Everett who is more or less than charge of a strong foreign policy during this period does chiefly compliment or does he distinguished? He's worldview from. Hey, there were certain differences. Chiefly sent William McMahon bowl to Indonesia to gain intelligence about what was going on in Indonesia. He needed to look at what was going on in terms of Indonesian nationalism. And to check out the Indonesian leaders, and this was in non in forty five November nineteen forty five McMahon bowl when he came back. Chiefly a maiden and arrangement to mate ball and chiefly asked him. Did he agree with Everett's statement that Australia shoot go to Indonesia and sip themselves up is some sort of moderator and ball said, no. And chiefly said, I'm glad that you said that because that's exactly he's point of view that we should not be moderators because that could be very very dangerous, and what was made it was the United Nations to step in. So in conclusion your thesis. Is that far from being only comfortable dealing with domestic issues while if it more or less ran foreign policy your arguments, chiefly Hild a sophisticated nuanced understanding of international relations that come to grips with the collapse of Britishness that you'll lawn that is and it's interesting too. Because Tiffany was very interesting. What was going on in India and between July on June twenty nine he acted as minister for external affairs for but one month and even as early as non in forty six as the High Commissioner to India surive in MCI recalled after seeing chiefly during his lay home, he said that he had an interview chiefly and during the interview chief just put his fate up, and he stays suck pipe then for two hours. Hey, told me what was going on in India? And this is not in Forty-six, Fresno. Julie thanks so much being on the show today. And thank you very much for inviting me, Julie Suarez is the author of jibe e chiefly. And aren't internationalised. It's just out from 'em UP, and we'll put a link on our website. Well, that's it for this week show. Remember if you'd like to hear the episode again, download segments since twenty four nine just go to ABC dot net. 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