Marciel, Marquette Elder, Mark Driscoll discussed on Theocast - Reformed Theology
But please know that when you stand before it on the last day you'll will know that you've had enough inter able to care for so. Don't be wigging out. You know about the size of your church and the size of your assembly and we all are prone to do that. My goodness i mean you were were three pastors three church planners here and it is so easy for your identity to be wrapped up in how many people show up on sunday. I mean that that speaks to the frailty odes in all of us right. That's not to our credit. That's to our shame. You know that we think in those ways I my thought. One one thing to guys as i'm listening to you talking. I reflect back on my experience listening to podcasts. I was struck over and over again by like you were talking about john the baptisms and all the people coming to faith and people who hated the church now in the church. Love the church. It's like look it's clear that the lord did some really great stuff through this like i don't think that can be debated because the tendency amongst evangelicals to win. There's a failure and when this kind of expose piece comes out it's like well. We need literally burn the whole thing down like it never happened like we need so distance ourselves from moscow. Going marciel that anything that ever took place. There couldn't have been from god and it's like you can't do that in a fallen world because if anything scriptures bear witness to the fact that he's always used broken vessels to advance his purposes and that's that's true it's been true for millennia and so i think it's better for us to say you know what the lord obviously was a part of this. He in spite of the sin failure here did some phenomenal. things brought people to christ. I mean stoked f a fire in people's hearts in terms of love for the church and love for their brothers and sisters. And that's the lord's doing It ought to humble us all. I mean that he accomplishes this stuff. Like through our sin and failure not in spite of report from it. No it's right born of the reform tradition. Which all three of us here spouse and hold tune believe that is biblical is a plurality of leaders. Or as we say a plurality of elders. See i grew up in the baptist world fundamentalist baptist world where it may opera Ceo the pastor is basically. You never you. Don't question him and word math and his And i i saw the the impact. I had on my own data. He was a pastor the pressure that put under him. I seeing how it can affect other churches and even though marquette elder's the it was unfortunately you can see the structure where those guys weren't keeping him accountable and it's in many ways they couldn't because the way in which structure that was set up there and i it is scary when one man has that much influence in not much power and and were even changing the bylaws to give him more exactly exactly and i don't wanna make this just you know a bash of of mark driscoll. I think it's a broader problem where we become more concerned about running the church. Like a business where you have a business model and you have bought you have Ceo wars. Yeah and and it's more about the decision making process where pastors become businessmen instead of shepherds. And yes right there about leading this movement which you can hear going back to your point. Justin that everything is about the mission everything is about. What are we trying to accomplish. Which i agree. The church should be on mission but the mission that goes handed to them by god. And it's not the transformation of city in. It's not the mean you you get loss. It's the preauthorized that's right when you look at four. I know we mentioned it. But when paul seems to give clears mission of what the church is when we function as we should we are building each other up into the maturity of the person of christ and somehow we have lost it Two weeks ago. I preach sermon on the shattered church or shattered by the church in because the church has lost. One it's history and to its mission. It runs people over. I mean mark is just an example of hundreds of churches that just run people over because if you show up and you have problems in you in you are your weak and feeble and this church is is is it's like moving somewhere and you're going to drag them down. They just don't have time for that. That time for counseling. They don't have time to carry your burden. Don't have time to sit and weep with you. The thing that paul says weep with those who weep the church should literally if if someone is hurting than we hurt with them but in today's movement. You can't do that because it's more about growth and movement and power and more campuses more more more more more. And i'm looking at going. Look at how many people you have left in the wake of your mission. How can that be the mission of the church really quick before a toss it patrick. I think it's clear that in the early years a lot of that was happening. Like based on my listening to the podcast but then as it evolved in the thing bigger it became all about the growth of the platform. And that's i think. One of the more humbling sobering things that we all need to be mindful of For sure like as we're thinking about about leading leading churches and And loving people Yeah distraught me. John as you were talking about it i agree with you and it seems like that was happening but that was lost somewhat over the course of years. Yeah yeah just a couple of thoughts to piggyback. What has been saying. One of the things i've heard over the years is Healthy things grow right and that is true in part but it depends on how you define growth first of all right. Are we defining that growth by the way that scripture does right versus our our self defined mission right in the way that we've kind of changed the mission and purpose of a church. The other thing is unhealthy. Things grow to write the wheat and the tares grow up together so to just start using the appearance of fruit as justification for doing anything essentially it it really is a manifestation of theology of glory. Right that that the advance of church looks like this. It's this magisterial glorious thing. We're going to take things over instead of fright a theology of the cross where we are simply proclaiming christ caring for each other in a broken world where we are going to have trouble where the things of the world will flourish at times and our glorious to come not here and so i think that is how we define some of those things. We talk about is so important in making sure we're constrained by scripture. Yeah i i think a couple of final observations from million and you guys maybe make yours to one. I was astonished to listen to Almost like to hear driscoll speak with pride about the number of bodies that lay behind the mars hill. Bus like any said. By god's grace it'll be a mountain when we're done And i'm like just interject on that. There's another podcast that interviews about his new church and they literally have a bus parked in the parking lot for that and visual purpose. Yeah so. I'm i'm.