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Good evening. John Berman here in for Anderson. Tonight Mick Mulvaney in the middle right in the middle and that might be a very uncomfortable. The place to be the job of the White House. Chief of staff is to implement the president's policy in new testimony released today says it was Mick Mulvaney implementing the the policy of pressuring Ukraine for the President's own political gain new the res transcripts from two top national security aides in the White House. Now Time Mick Mulvaney Dany to a direct role in what has been called a quid pro quo others call the shakedowns. Some call the bribery at the heart of the impeachment inquiry this on the day that mulvaney subpoena and skipped his deposition on Capitol Hill. Both the on a hill and Lieutenant Colonel Alexander van men say the president's Ambassador to the EU Gordon Song told told them during a July meeting that he had spoken to Mulvaney and that there would be no meeting between the two heads of state nor military aid for Ukraine without quote investigations. Colonel said quote the whole came from the chief of Staff's Office Hill said quote. We were told that it actually came as a direction from the chief of staff office colonel and called the administration's expectations of Ukraine of Ukraine quote a deliverable in ambassador. Someone's meaning he. He said quote there was no doubt he also said this of sunlen quote he was calling for something. Calling for an investigation that didn't exist into the Biden's in Barista Hill says her superior National Security Adviser John Bolton called this quote improper arrangement also today bones lawyer in a letter to Congress made clear his his client has extensive knowledge about relevant meetings and conversations that could be important for the impeachment inquiry but that he won't testify until and unless federal the judge rules on whether he must comply with congressional subpoena here to discuss all of this is Congressman Denny. Heck a member of the intelligence committee which conducted the closed door hearings. In which next next week we'll begin the public phase of the impeachment inquiry congressman. Heck thank you very much for being with us. These transcripts in the statements from Fiona Hill in Lieutenant Colonel Vincent and do you think this brings this all closer to the president himself. I don't think there's any doubt about it for first of all John. I serve with Mick Mulvaney for several several years in the House of Representatives. I know back. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that he never would have implemented. This had it not been at the direction of the president and secondly a bit of a unique the perspective. I'm a former chief-of-staff buy-sell for Governor Booth Gardner out here in Washington State. I guarantee you know chief of staff is going to implement anything of that. Importance uh-huh without direction from their principal in this case the president of the United States. But let's be clear and let's be correct in our terminology John. He's the acting chief of staff and frankly I'm not very sure or confident. He's going to be the acting chief of staff much longer because I think what's about to happen here is that he and ambassador Sunland online and perhaps Rudy Giuliani or all about to get thrown under the bus. Okay you bring up the Washington Post reports. which does suggest that re- Giuliani Mick? Mulvaney eighty an impasse. There might be treated as fog is from some supporters of the president in your mind. You just said that doesn't hold any water. Why mm-hmm because again? It defies credibility that the president's personal lawyer a large donor who had a ready access to the president. That's what ambassador Sunland did and his acting chief of staff would be carrying out these kinds of important acts without the direction of the President United States sites. It just defies credibility. And that's even before you consider the fact that of course we have the president's own confession in the form of the memorandum of call between himself often President Zielinski in which he actually attempted shakedown. The president of Ukraine clearly explicitly in arguably having read the transcripts of what. Colonel Vincent and Fiona Hill said. Neither of them said they heard directly from Mick Mulvaney about this. They say they heard from Sunlen who heard from Mulvaney was the significance of that? So John here we are. You can either believe that all of these. The people that came forward mostly career diplomats people across federal agencies across continents. All of these people who have come forward and giving depositions positions every one of which has in every material way corroborated one another and their narrative and the set of facts that they've brought to light. You can either believe they're are not telling the truth. And Somehow conspiratorially they all got together they all contrived all of this they cross the T.'s and dotted the is. You can believe they did that. Or you can believe would which frankly I think commonsense likelier to be the case. The president's lying Mick Mulvaney receive subpoenaed to testify today. He skipped it. Obviously I'm sure you would like to hear from him directly what he has to say about it but now that he hasn't shown up. Your committee isn't going to fight it in court. Why not? We're not going to play a rope a dope. That's another delaying tactic. On their part they'd like to see this extended for months if not years. It's a tried tried and true. Play out of the presence playbook even when he was in In the private sector what he would do with the subcontractors litigated them into oblivion but secondly we you don't need it. There's a mountain of evidence against the president beginning with of course his own confession. Which again acting chief-of-staff Mick Mulvaney signed in the formative formative press conference in which he acknowledged that there was a quid pro? Cool bribery this for that and the text and The testimony of all of these people we've deposed they all point to the President John Bolton who was the national security advisor his lawyer wrote a letter to Congress today saying saying that Bolton knows many relevant things that happened it was part of many relevant meetings and if he did testify would have things to to say that would shed more light in all of this. You have any idea what he means. And I want to remind you and our viewers that he defied a subpoena to testify well. Actually we didn't issue the subpoena. John a doctor. You invited him. And he didn't again show up and he made clear that he would defy subpoena if it was issued right. And I'd like to think frankly that embassador Bolton would come forward. I think frankly wrinkly John. It's the patriotic thing to do. He's acknowledged that he has relevant information. I think his responsibility in his duty as a citizen to share it with us and with the American public and in fact I wish that he would take a page out of the book of two of the people that worked for him Colonel Denman and Dr Fiona Hill who had the courage to come Ford share with the committee. Speak Truth to power about what went on here but again we're not gonNA play rope a dope. We're not going to subject ourselves to month after month. After month of apple protracted legal battle. I do want to ask about the testimony. The depositions transcripts that have been released because you can look at this as if there are two buckets. There's one bucket which is did it happen and then the other bucket of is an impeachable. The did it happen. Bucket is overflowing at this point based on the deposition you you have this what you describe as mountain of evidence about what took place. The is an impeachable bucket. How do you intend to prove that next week when these series go public so John? That decision is really one of a matter of conscience of each of the four hundred thirty five members of the House and the hundred members of the Senate that's a question of them engaging in personal reflection and I dare say prayerful reflection about what is at stake here If you believe that the president's shaking down Ukraine threatening to withhold critical military assistance to a vulnerable ally vulnerable strategic ally in Ukraine who's trying to combat Russian aggression and let's remember that they're thirteen thousand Ukrainians who have lost their lives on their Homeland soil defending themselves against Russian aggression. If you believe the trail of of his oath of office in that abuse of power is impeachable. Then you'll get to. Yes but it's up to each of the four hundred and thirty five members to consider the fact but you're right. I mean there is a mountain of evidence and it is arguable and yet the president has not acknowledged in any way shape or form nor anyone around. I'd like for us to get to the point. Where the debate was is it or is it not impeachable but it is a fact congressman? Denny heck thanks for being with US tonight I appreciate it. Thank you for more on Mick Mulvaney vaisnys role in all this want to bring in CNN chiefly land list and former federal prosecutor Jeffrey toobin and CNN political analysts in New York Times. White House correspondent Maggie Haberman. Thank you both for being here Maggie just just based on what you know about how this White House works and what Mick Mulvaney is role is in it. Does he freelance. Would he freelance on something of this important. Want to speculate without having actual details but about this instance but what we do know is in the past. Mulvaney has not been known to go do things. Well outside of what the president is aware of. We certainly know that he we knew. Even before all this testimony that he was involved in terms of directing the freeze on the aid that he was acting on orders from the president. That's basically what we knew now. We have heard his name. Come up repeatedly in testimony and given the fact that this was going on over a period of many months these conversations. It is hard to imagine that this was all happening. You know with Mulvaney on his own and the president was unaware Mulvaney is going to be a key witness as you said did for Congress to get to before them. I don't know that that's going to happen. But he holds. The answers to a lot of this has always been Mick Mulvaney. He wants to let trump be trump. It's never let mc MC I mean Mick. Mulvaney is role in there is to implement Donald Trump's policy in wishes and wins right. That is certainly how he has described his own role. I think there might be times where he is pushing back more than he says. But there's certainly nothing that I have heard so far and might more might come out but nothing that I have heard. That suggests that he was trying to stop this or suggested at the president. This is a bad idea and remember John One of the things. We don't have an answer to still is who came up with this India to freeze the aid. Where where did this actually come from this come from Guiliani to this comfortable vinnie? Did this come from trump. I I could see trump saying you know what we send too much money doing it. That way. That's sort of what Mulvaney frankly had suggested in that White House briefing that he did. Look the president has questions all the time about sending aid to certain places so we have to say in fact you point point out the one time we have heard Mick Mulvaney talk about this extensively he more or less said yes. Yes this all happen Jeffrey..