Very different. So it's that combination of the account based marketing approach and customer experience coming together. I can't base experience. So it's not as a whole new thing. It's just bringing together the bits that we know work into a single place. And I think that messaging bit is really a key part of it. So, you know, if you've got someone who's just starting their bio journey, they're brand new to maybe to the market, or they've never heard of you as an organization. You can't go in there with a call to action straight away, because you're just going to lose them. You've got to have that emotional feel to get them thinking, that brand is really somewhere I want to be someone I want to be talking to. Once I start showing some more relevant buying solutions, then you bring in the logical side of it. So the educational stuff on all around that, getting them understanding why, you know, what they're trying to do is really relevant. And it's only when they start showing buying signals and start engaging with you. You bring that call to action in there and really start honing down on why it's you that they should be focused on. Then they get to the stage or it looks like we could close this deal. Then you move into the validation phase and it's really best practice and making sure that they're fully understanding all the concepts that make sense to them. So you're really getting that entire bio committee, not just the people that are being sold to sales, but the rest of that buying committee understanding yet right brand right product, right solution, this is really working. And then beyond sale, once you've sold that, it's really nurturing the customers so that you can continue with your best practice advice so that they are able to maybe upsell to another product or something else that you offer additional services, whatever it may be. So that it'd be ex approach, bringing together that customer experience with just spoke about with the account based approach. We've always agreed as the right thing. Is really the essence of ABX. And of course, the last piece of the puzzle, what based marketing, there's always the goggles on, oh, that's mark is it. Now we know all areas of the business should really be adopting this account based approach to be that the sales team, the SPR team, the customer success team. And if you combine it all together, so you're all looking at the same data you're building in the same strategy you're working together. It's a lot more effective. So it is an acronym, but I think all we're really doing is trying to bring all those key bits that everyone probably agrees is the right thing to do together under one umbrella. Don't make sense. It does make sense. And I think going back to what you said earlier, now that the CFOs are also getting involved in the conversation, it does make sense to kind of encompass you have your sales, your customer success, your marketing, and how are they all falling under this umbrella to drive revenue, which makes a lot of sense. And I have to share, I had read, John Miller, he was a guest on our show, you're fearless leader, a few months back. And we were talking about ABM and social, but I had come across an article that he described account based marketing as fishing with spears, and I had a little laugh because he basically acknowledged that when you fish with spears, you poke the fish and being poked by a spear isn't necessarily so pleasant. And he kind of talked about how ABX is more about encompassing more. You're not poking that fish, but again, being a little bit more broad. And I love that analogy. But with that, kind of leads me to start wondering, you know, Paul in your role in your career, I mean, there's a lot of change going on. Leaving out the last few years, but what on earth is keeping you up at night professionally as you see all of these shifts in the market taking place as a sales leader as VP emea? It sounds like such a royalty role. What is up? Yeah, absolutely. You can't knock the VP term, right? I think that's very much in American view of job title. But I love it. I love it. And it's a difficult one. I mean, one of the things that we've already touched on a bit, I'm not saying it keeps me up at night, but that's surprised me is the number of leaders be they sadly, there's a Martin leader that really do admit that they're a bit blind to what is going on. And there's a lot of initiative and guesswork and intuition going into I think that's what I'm going to do next year rather than having the data to back it up. And I don't know how much of that is down to over the years. It's being very much seen as a strategic approach that takes a lot of time and effort. And we haven't really got the time or the effort to do that. So let's just throw stuff out there and see what sticks. I heard the term spray and pray a lot. So advertising here, there and everywhere. And hope that some of it sticks. Yeah. And let the B2C world, right? That makes a lot of sense, because if you're selling boots or something and you think you identified someone who's interested in buying boots, of course, your target then, but your target, everyone else, because it can be other people who want to buy boots at the same time. So it makes sense. In the B2B world, if it's not a company that you can sell to and it isn't a good fit. Does it really make sense to focus on them? Because the best case scenario is you get them to engage, and you throw an opportunity to sales. And sales being sales are probably go after it because they might be able to close it. The chances of closing it very slim because it's not a good fit. And if they do close it, it's not a good account. So the chances of renewing it and having a good experience for the customer are indeed the businesses isn't really there. So as I say, it doesn't sound keep me up at night, but it does surprise me. How many, sometimes very sophisticated organizations just go and get a budget and throw it here there and everywhere and hope that some of it sticks. When today, there's technologies and data out there to make sure that you can focus all of your time effort and resource in the right places. And yeah, so it doesn't keep me up at night, but it does surprise me. No, listen, I think it's good to talk about surprises as well. And, you know, something that I think is interesting with account based marketing specifically or ABX, if you will, is one, I do think it gives marketers the ability to earn a seat at the strategy table because as you said, it kind of eliminates the guesswork of did this work or did this not work or kind of go with our gut. It does give us the data to be able to really guide us. And that second thing I'd like to share is I do think in a time now more than ever as more and more strategies if you will are going digital, sales and marketing really do need to be aligned. And when you think about how you kind of even structure or begin the conversation with account based marketing, or the first thing marketing has to do with give sales a call, hey, let's talk about which accounts are going after. So it does force this alignment, this communication and a new way of working together that as I said in the beginning, as a marketer and someone who has spent ten years in sales, I appreciate that more than ever. So I do think that that's really interesting in terms of thinking for 2022 and I would say dissolving this old myth of sales and marketing don't get along. I think we've made strides against that. What I'd like to ask now again for anyone listening in and everybody I think right we're always learning ABL always be learning if you will. Where are some of the places you go to, whether it be publications, podcasts, maybe you follow some influencers, micro influencers in the space, to stay up to date in the ABM kind of strategy or the field. What are you reading? That's a great question. And I probably won't pick out any individual pace because I'm a consumer of all sorts from everywhere. And so there's thought leaders that have been around for a long time. There's new thought leaders out in the space. And I would say this would I, but having the likes of John Miller in the business is huge. I mean, he was the founder of marketo and engaging. So he's got lots of experience and knowledge. And not to plug at all, but his new ABX book that you mentioned is a great font of all knowledge. So, you know, here there and everywhere to be honest, I listen to podcasts like yourself. And I'm always up to date as much as I can with what's going on. But it's a constantly evolving base, right? I think there's always new players in the space. And it's good to get their take on it. Because often they have a different approach which harnesses things. Cool, cool. So we'll encourage everybody listening in to go follow both John Miller and Paul Gibson on LinkedIn so they're shooting out these new pieces of thought leadership and maybe new approaches. I have two more questions for you before we close out our show. The first is LinkedIn. We can go on LinkedIn and search for Paul Gibson. There's a few that do come up. You find the one for demand base and we can learn a lot about you. And the same rate can be said if we Google your name. What I want to know right now and I'd love for you to get a little radically transparent with me is what's one thing that you can tell us about yourself that we can not find on your LinkedIn profile or know from Google. By me, that's how I answer this one. No, I think from my younger days, I've always been a bit of a surfer a bit of moschino and one thing I always wanted to do. I don't know if this is a sort of alter looking for. But I've always wanted to do is open up a rum and surf shack or a raman ski shack. So a sticker hut on a beach to the tropical island or up in a mountain somewhere and hire out surfboards and skis and then at the end of the day they come back and we sit and over some cool music and a bit of rum, we just talk about the day. So I don't know if that's the sort of thing you're asking for. That's something I've always wanted to do. I'm probably getting too old to do it now. I might just have to settle on the ram and forget the surfing and yeah, one of those dreams that I've had since I was a young kid. I mean, I'm one day one day. One day, listen, one day, what I have to ask though because I know you're sitting in a Mia, where do you surf? I don't know anymore. I used to, I used to follow the sun. So I used to go down to new key, which is down in Cornwall. Around there a lot, but I went across a lot in Europe, Portugal and places like that. And then I took a 18 month sabbatical and went traveling around following the sun, so I went down through Hawaii and I did Australia and all around there. So yeah, anywhere anywhere there was a way but I would give it a go. All right, well, we're hoping to see that ramen surf shop, and maybe the next that's the 5 year plan here. So we'll keep an eye out for it. My last question for you Paul. Anyone listening in, they want to learn about ABM. They want to know more about demand based. They want to learn more about surfing, where is the best forum or channel to reach you? LinkedIn is always good. And I'm open to anyone having a chat on LinkedIn. I don't know if you've got my details, I can share them, if not after this. I'm very open. I'm an open book as they say and happy to talk to anyone. As I say, you can find me very easily. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm not necessarily me, but we have a really good dbe resources just set up. So anything you want to know about ABX ABM, lots of really interactive videos with customers and lots of knowledge. That's a really good place to go as well. Fantastic Paul. Thank you for joining me on the radically transparent podcast, brought to you by octopus. And we hope to have you back for future more deep conversations around ABX because that should be a really interesting one in 2022. Absolutely. Thanks, Jen, fairly enjoyed it and look forward to speaking to you again soon. Thanks for tuning in to the radically transparent podcast brought to you by octopus, the only social media management and employee advocacy platform architected for B2B. I'm Jennifer Goodman, your host and director of social strategy here at octopus. And if you love today's show, we'd love if you subscribe rate and give a raving review wherever you get your podcasts. For more discussion on B2B social media marketing, be sure to follow octopus on LinkedIn and of course, to gain access to all our free social media marketing and employee advocacy resources, head on over to our website, WWW, dot dot com. Until next time..