I think what we can talk about the source later on on the basic knowledge I have, my perhaps contrary in view is that the public has for the last year or two essentially known what there is to know about Donald Trump. If you thought as I did that, Donald Trump was unprepared for public office that he was sketchy on his command of issues that he was a inflaming negative trends in the American psyche and all the rest, the evidence for that was very, very well on the record long before he, uh, that the, the Elector went to the polls a little more than a year ago to my mind. The question is, what does this mean for the Republican establishment by which? I mean there's only one group of people right now who really can do anything about this knowledge setting aside rubber Miller as team. And that's essentially the Republican majority in the House. The Republican majority in the Senate, Those are the people can say, We're going to have hearings were going to issue subpoenas. We're going to have accountability. We're going to look into this or that we can have different rules for what. A foreign policy impulses. The president can't himself indulge. So I think what the American public should do is say, Hey, Mr Speaker Paul, Ryan, Hey, Mr, uh, Majority Leader, Mitch McConnell, Hey, all of you elect Republicans. This is your responsibility to do something. What are you going to do on that now exam? A lot of people are the scuttle But in certain circles was that the Republican leadership in Congress was just waiting to get their tax reform package passed. And then they could finally be rid of Donald Trump in in a mid-term election year that potentially could swing. And in the negative for Republicans, they would cut their losses and finally distance and the themselves from the president. Now it's only January something or other. So it's pretty early in the air. But do you think that that calculation is potentially going to add up as it were letting the Republican leadership? So as any signs of ditching, the president of Here is where I give my standard caviar that. No, Jeff has familiar with which is I made exactly one prediction about Donald Trump which was two and a half years ago. I said, nobody like this has ever been elected president. Therefore nobody like this will be elected president since then I have four sworn all predictions of any kind. However, e- it is it is surprising to me that the main signed you see of Republican congressional sort of a distance from Trump as the people who are not running anymore. You know, these Hamma was a couple dozen now, um, Republican congressmen or or a significant number in in swing districts are saying a I don't need this anymore. And so it seems to be a silent voting with their feet. But y- you would think if there were, uh, I I just I I'll ask each of you are Lasko all of you. What can you imagine as a trigger that will finally make the Republicans in congress say, Okay, that we've gone this far, But condition X s excess X is the one that finally up. Pushes over the brink gets his authority. I mean, that's a psychotic breakdown. Well, I mean, I'm not I'm not kidding. I'm not kidding. I mean like like an active proof or or increase incontrovertible proof that he's become fully detached from reality. Right now, He's not detached from reality. He creates his own reality. He exaggerates he in the foul Giles's You know, as I think it was our colleague, Jim handling who said at least he said it to me mature. We told our readers, But he he said that it's one thing to say that the crowd size is one thing when it's another. But if he had come out and said Not only did have the biggest crowd ever seen, but it was filled with vampires At that point. I think some Republicans might say, Okay, This guy's actually nuts. But you know the where were far away from a psychotic break it to that point. I think the Another I I often hear another type of answer to a question like that, which is that you know to your point in the story wrote for the Atlantic dark on the other day, Jim, that it was an open secret that the behavior. President Trump That was on display to some degree, The weathered, how how much of it you believe on this way to some degree or another in Michael Wolf's book is behavior that has been paraded in public through Trump's self presentation since he was campaigning for the presidency. Certainly since he has occupied it. And in that light, What's different Now what is what is the set of steps that would cause the Republicans in Congress to have to take another to actually have to start taking more steps than they already have in starting investigations in Latvia? Who will let me give an oblique answer from a time even before when I first read for the Atlantic them actually that the very first article ever did for national magazine was for Esquire magazine, which I was doing reporting on a 1973 in 1974 and I just got a graduate school. And it was about the Republicans on the House Judiciary Committee that were investigating. I'll a Richard Nixon. And. What what sort of uh, not migration, but what process they went through when deciding on how they're going to vote? And I spent a lot of time with a man named Charles Wiggins, who was then a, uh, you eventually became an appeals. Court judged the night circa abuse than a very conservative Republican congressman from a suburban LA district. El Monte was in his discreet. Essentially the same district. The Congressman Royce has just announced. He's not going to run for run for Ganda in California. I spent months with this guy and he was one of them who finally went to Richard Nixon, the White House after the release of some of the ah, that the crucial tapes were next was saying, I all this most incriminating things and watching this process back then forty plus years ago saying there is a certain gelling moment. The time when the Kaleidoscope comes into focus a time when suddenly people say, uh, with the it's the open secret moment as we see with with Harvey Weinstein. So it for four when. Came going back even further when it came to Lyndon Johnson and his viability in office. It was the collection of events and early nineteen 68 subject of a previous radio Atlantic show where the Tet offensive and the rise in the cities and the assassination of Martin Luther King and all the rest made Lyndon Johnson. Think that the suddenly was not viable for him to stay in office. Suddenly in the summer of 1974 became not viable for Richard Nixon to stay in office. And the Republicans told him that even though the objective facts were only slightly different from what was known before. So, So again, the questions I'm not willing to predict yet, but something will make it suddenly not viable for Donald Trump to exercise the powers that that he does. And we can't No, Maybe this Michael Wolff A book will be that the thing that that has that gelling affect. I don't know so far. It's hard to see signs of Republicans, choosing to bail out over it. I want to I want to hear what Alex thanks by p the break point, but. I want to challenge you Jim a little bit on something. This whole conversations posited on the idea that the Republicans are behaving in an unusual and really irresponsible way. But the Democrats during the Clinton impeachment scandal Where we're standing by their man. All right, and and their man by our lights today was engaged, had engaged in behavior that was completely agree. GIS and immoral. I'm just wondering if if if if the Republicans are acting in some sort of particularly egregious way or this is just a typical way that that that that members of a party behave when they're protecting the president in protecting their power. So it's a good question which I would would respond to in in two ways. One is back in the Nixon era. There were a number of Republican centrists sore statesman or whatever who I'm thinking of Now he was Scott and Mark Hatfield and others who were were willing to say, we are loyal to our president in our party, But but. This is wrong so that that's a standard by which today's Republicans fall short by their own parties, standards the after his to think about Ito what Bill Clinton did and was impeached for in the White House was was horrible and unseemly an indisciplined and everything else. But objectively I would contend It was about one percent as grave a threat to the republic as what has been alleged from of from Donald Trump down terms of lack of transparency on taxes of foreign entanglements and all the rest. So, uh, it I am a little wary of having exact parallels an end less, lest we forget, um, Joe Lieberman with was a he was still Democrat when he was criticising Clinton Mosley. I think that's true. Yeah, I I I think also another differentiating factor is that what Wolf if you believe let Michael Wolff is reporting one hundred percent of the people who work in the Trump White House. Think Donald Trump is unfit to be president. And in the Clinton by the way caveat, I'm not sure. Are we believe? Sure. But if we're operating, This is a guy who thinks of speed if people believe something is true, then it's true. This is Michael wolves philosophy Gerant. So let's Well, but and this as the point of argument Rayer Like there were people that legitimately did not think that what Bill Clinton and and I'm not offering a judgment here, but there were people that legitimately didn't think it was that big of a deal. What Clinton did in in in the White House with Lansky and therefore, I mean, I feel like this sort of moral pretzel, the the What does it The the the the the moral pretzel, a moral pretzel thinking which the liver It hardware asked what Alex Where I would actually be an incredible method so that you know that the twists that one had to content oneself in to add as a Democrat potentially in those years were perhaps less fraught The I've when drawing up the past, I will likely I'm no, but I think that there was like legit. But Look, I'm all for the reckoning that we're having the conversation. We're having your on sexual assault and produce. And and I think in the light of to your point, Jeff, what we're discussing in trip Clinton's transgressions look a lot worse today than I think they seemed in the mid and in end early '90s. I mean, I think that's just fact we just think about sexual assault and predation in a different way. And I don't think Trump's fitness for office which is apparently widely contested among members of his own party. If quietly It's not the say it's an apples to borrow up. All I'm saying is, is that the Republican behavior that seems so abberant is actually not aborate within the broad American political context, which is that they stick with their guy, but don't you think this is a different moment in terms of like of course in over a 100-seater I just think that have it. They haven't caught up in a garden of way, you know, and and you could you could do a lot at tricks in your mind to take it seem more normal that it is. I'm just I'm just I wear though, like Do you think I wonder what Republicans really think of Donald Trump. I don't have to wonder, I talk to them. I know what they think of Donald Trump. Well, what do they think of Donald Trump? He's off if they think he's not fit for office, and that's my experience to and talking with her. The Obama I'm just I'm just saying that that I that's fine. Republicans should be more aware of his faults and flaws. I'm just saying that this is I shall. I'm just having fun. I'm just having a little fun arguing with you guys. I'm looking for an argument as it to the to this point though. I mean, is there something that's distinctively beyond the pale in the observations that Michael Wolff has either recorded or depending on who you talk to you? Perhaps exaggerated her fabricate it. So. So let's summing where imagine we all would agree and Mrs I think implied much, Jeff, and Alex are saying his We're not going to take everything in this book at face value. And I think in my piece I said, Let's assume half. That's true. Let's assume a deep discount, even at a deep discount. This is different I think, from what we've heard before, and I'll give these couple illustrations in what is now known as the final days for Richard Nixon It was widely thought he was drinking heavily that Alexander Haig was sort of intervening. And James Schlesinger were sort. Of intervening to take him out of the nuclear chain of command at cetera, cetera. But that was viewed as a very specific time at the end of his presidency. Nobody thought he was incompetent, thought he was a crook. They thought all these other things with a nobody questioned his intelligence or is is competence. Looking Johnston to is I think by He was by most definitions a actual paranoid. Um, and Doris Kearns Goodwin right after she us a stopped working for than doors Kerns a as a young White House age, You know, wrote a book about all the sort of mental twists in Lyndon Johnson psyche. But nobody thought that he didn't know what he was doing. Our that he was having a was as her of operating out of fantasies. And I think the consistent narrative about Trump in this book from people around him on the campaign trail is that this is a guy who mentally and in terms of information is different from at least a modern times anyone we've had in this office. The way I want understand, Do you think you just let's go back to this runs I can You don't think that will. His presenting anything that people don't already know. 'cause you A might might premise is that he will was sort of the open secret premise. It was like eight no or that the Casablanca shocked just shocked to gambling. Who on that, that that he is making more vivid. Something that I'd been in Likud Washington in a mongrel toot Republicans. They all knew that there was something unusual about the sky, and I think the virtue of that is is saying If they everybody knows about this, Why are they doing something about it? I don't know. I I give Iraq. Mack looks give me one second. I to read something written in October two thousand sixteen Donald Trump has no record of public service and no qualifications for public office. His affect is that of an infomercial huckster. He traffics and conspiracy theories and racist invective He is appallingly sexist, He's a Radic secretive and Zina phobic. He expresses admiration for authoritarian rule is and evinces authoritarian tendencies himself. He is easily goaded a poor-quality for someone seeking control of America's nuclear arsenal. He's an enemy of fact-based discourse. He is ignorant of an indifferent to the Constitution. He appears not to. That's when the Atlantic two, two thousand sixteen endorsement of Hillary Clinton. I mean, nothing new and Narang's now who are by guys listeners are listening to that on double-speed your you may have to actually reverse it and and do have you know, I just started listening of hot gas on double-speed I just learned about us. Is anybody do that twice as many podcast, The media, It's unbelievable to Jeff's point though, Jim, Uh, in in the endorsement. I mean much of these that same argument was made this amendment prophet. Yes. And Andy in the one hundred and sixty two installments that I did at the Trump behind Council literally million number of who's counter. Why? But who's counting of from a march through November of two thousand sixteen I was essentially laying down the case that that was just, you know, very well summarised I-in that editorial, whoever might have written that I was, you know, administer Jeff wait, which made made the case. And so so I think we're we're saying something similar in different the facts about Donald Trump have been there for anybody who cared to see them and picked Gary. I IN Jack, though, Jim, because there with those that and I always encourage everyone to read the Atlantic point of view on on basically. Everything, but there were a whole lot of people who hoped and thought maybe that when Donald Trump was sworn in he would, he would somehow become residential and broker Utoe bipartisan legislation with Democrats in sort of, um, challenged the orthodoxy of the Republican Party Rosa campaign promise after all, at some point are going to be so presidential that you people will prefer. Right, So so as much as it was an open secret, there was like sort of willful denial that that the Secret wasn't what are we thought it was? Do you know what I'm saying? It? Yes, And I think everybody hoped that I hope that as somebody who very much did not want him to become president, we became president. I hoped that he would become the deal maker. It's had a run. This would all be a a bad, a bad memory, a of the campaign. But but again the I think the seemingly contradictory but actually not point. The raw grappling with here is that the evidence of what he is like has been around there for a long time, something will make it harder for those who can do something about it to ignore it living's. Yet we try another a flight of questioning, clubbing through better better answers wrote it. Well, this is a country that I the insanity right at Cambridge and overdue for a better answer. There has been something of a pattern of when Republican presidents are in office. Certainly. For the last three including the current one of questioning their their mental aptitude and fitness for the role, I recall your attention to a book published in two thousand four by an author named Dr Justin, Frank called Bush on the couch inside the mind of the president. Uh, which was about in part the, uh, the mental accuity of President, George W Bush in office at the time after President Reagan. After he left the office in a nineteen 94, um, revealed the diagnosis of Alzheimer's. There is a lot of speculation about how how was his mental state in the final years of his taking the office and it is it just that every time there is a Republican president, isn't there a party of out of sorts liberals who just want to attack the Republican president on the grounds that they are somehow unfit or indecent that They're mentally incapable of living up to the role? Um, how is this line of questioning about President Trump different from that? Um, I will start with the premise that anybody who becomes president is abnormal in some way because it's such a you know, it demanding and crazy making process to get there and to have have the job. And yet when I was a before worked for the Atlantic Osea work for Jimmy Carter. And so it is even Carter who seems saint like in his post presidency. He was was an abnormal guy to and became present almost by accident. It's at her are So yes, anybody, there will have some kind of strange psychological traits point to Ronald Reagan by all accounts, did was suffering from early dementia lease in his second term And I and I think that's not a partisan observation, is just sort of an actuarial fact that that most people recognised. On the other hand, he was surrounded by some of the most of veteran practitioners of statesmanship and politics. James Baker or George Shultz some cold Powell cetera who were at round there, which is is different from now. But again, I think it is. Yes, there is a partisan edged too. Criticising any president of either party Clinton was criticized in this way Obama LBJ et cetera. But I think that does that may distract attention. The fact that this guy is different in his preparation as level of knowledge, his departure from the factual realm. So in a moment we will pick up that question in what ways is Trump different And what has surprised there must about his presidency stick with us.