Alabama, ROE, President Trump discussed on NBC 4 News at 6
Temple is longer city. than you would see for second degree rape in Alabama. So some doctors may not even wanna come close to violating this law. So I think that's kind of fear life that if the law went into effect that even women, not just women who wanted regular abortions, but women who wanted other forms of healthcare might not be able to get it either. So what is the strategy here? If this drags out it forces, the pro choice, folks to sue, they must sue the states so that happens. But on the other hand, we have said you're talking the results of this position would be that you have women who were libertarian have been in, in western states. The eastern seaboard the upper midwest who are never going to with this. I mean you have such big resistance there. And as you said, there's a moat so many. Folks were motivated right now, who also forced laws force issues in the states to protect these laws. So all this is doing is ramping up the rhetoric and is divided as we are is that going to enter into this in a different way. The fact that also got a lot of judges that they are pointing. Yeah. I think the other thing that this does that I'm sure is very annoying to some of the more establishment pro-lifer anti-abortion groups is that these laws had sort of detracted from an argument that anti-abortion forces have been making in recent years, which is that abortion, hurts women. They argue that you don't the, there's a book by Dr John Wilkie, who is a recently deceased anti-abortion activists called. Why can't we love them both and the argument was anti-abortion opponents will never win in the supreme court or in politics, unless they can convince women that they're not anti woman in that you can be anti-abortion in program. It's really strikingly clear in the Alabama law that, that argument is just not being made. It's all about fetal rights. And so, I think it does deepen divisions. But it also kind of undermines a case that abortion, foes have been making in recent years, that they're trying to protect women if you will less often the argument that's being made. And I think Alabama and Georgia legislators, just simply weren't interested in making that argument. So I think that could. Be a setback anti-abortion organizations as well. What about the way that abortions are portrayed? I mean, the president and others have portrayed. The fact that they're women charters ripped of up to the moment birth, and then, even even as far as saying, the children actually put the death after the birth you keep them comfortable. And then the doctor quietly decides with the mother of what to do with child. This is complete this doesn't happen. Correct. It just doesn't happen. Yeah. I mean there are cases I think that closest thing to that actually happening is scenario where you have children. Born with, you know, either life threatening, or potentially just conditions that are incompatible with life and parents are given a choice about what to do about that. That's almost never after an abortion, though. Because for the most part that techniques that people use to perform abortions, even close to a period in which child could be boring alive. Preclude the happening of a live birth. So we're talking about some. I mean, there are ethical dilemmas in which parents are asked to decide what to do with critically ill or new ones that are not going to make it. But there aren't that isn't usually post-abortion in part because of worship providers and I can get into sales, if you like abortion providers don't use techniques that lead to live birth almost no, you're talking now. Non viable. A baby is born non-viable will not be able to live on their own breathe on their own or whatever. And the parents have to make a decision, whether they want to keep it alive on a breathing machine and suffer for any period of time, but the child would just will not live. It could not function. Correct. Right. Yeah. And I mean the thing that's I think the most misleading about what President Trump is saying, is that those are almost unrelated issues, most of the time you're talking about premature births or even sometimes non premature birth where you have infants with really serious problems, and parents, being asked to decide what to do versus something happening after an abortion abortions are usually performed in ways that would make it impossible for live birth to occur and that's especially true leader in pregnancy. So you're not. That's probably the single most misleading thing. We're not really realistically talking here about something exactly of boring alive aboard in baby. That's not something you're going to see almost ever talking to Mary's professor at Florida State University in written two books after the history of the Boertien debate and also beyond abortion, Rovers wait in the fight for privacy. Now, am I correct in saying that the abortion rate in the US has fallen since the eighties by over fifty over fifty percent, and I'm guessing because contraceptives regulations, and, and just so the society's changing people getting married later cetera et cetera et cetera. Yeah. I think we don't really know part, and we've never had the most amazingly clear abortion statistics in part, because abortion clinics don't have to report to the CDC. So assuming that the data we have are somewhat accurate. And there's recent of leave that they would be. There has been this dropping. We're not sure if it's due to better availability of contraception or the spread of abortion restrictions or both or like you mentioned just demographic changes people having children later in life altogether. I think it's probably a combination of those things, what about the technological aspect of this, that you're able today, because of technology determine a heartbeat earlier? But then at the same point thing that six week when you can determine heartbeat many women don't even know they're pregnant. Yeah. I mean, I think that there's always been a belief on the part of some pro-life anti-abortion groups that technology will sort of solve this for them and convinced people that are right to life should be protected. And I think there's some. Truth, and not in the sense that women shown ultrasound, for example, off of a harder time, any pregnancy than women who don't see an ultrasound, doesn't ultimately changed many women's mind, I think, on the other hand that belief. Right. That science will sort of settle the abortion debate and win it for the pro-life side has been around since the seventies, if you read the briefs that were submitted in Roe v. Wade, people were clearly thinking that, that would be true then and the reality of courses that were here over many decades later still fighting about the science as much as about the constitutional law, so you don't want to think that the technology has changed, our attitudes too much the other thing, Mary, when it comes up, you hear that an unborn child. If they're now be given the title of a actual rights, holing person. You get into a whole other aspect of the law that has expanded whether voting right? What are the rights does this person now have because you've just been determined to be fully full, full citizen with all the rights viewed by the constitution. So all along enough to be rewritten at that point, based on, on a fetus, correct. Well, we wouldn't really know. Right. But you would at least have to have the courts answer, all of those questions, I think the way to think about it is, it's kinda Pandora's box. And the reason I would be really surprised at the supreme court decided to go down that road is it conservatives have long been saying. You know, we want to get out of the abortion business. Right. When the court decided row, it kind of created this morass where every few years, the court has to wait into the abortion conflict and try to sort it out. And I imagine that the conservative justices on the court, if they're going to overturn Roe would like to stop talking about abortion, altogether, and stop probably talking about fetal rights all the other rather than entering into this new thicket of sort of talking about fetal rights, and what does it mean this is this is a person. What does that mean for tax purposes? I mean, it would just be basically endless litigation, and I don't think the court will want to deal with that. It also incompatible with the judicial philosophy most conservative jurists embrace. You did you did mention. I thought it an article where you said you thought it would be some. Point overturned, but agreed with me about Roberts and I think that he's an 'institutionalised so concerned about the courts reputation and it's a big responsibility. Sitting there saying, wow, this could come down to me and my, my decision. Absolutely. I mean, I still think that probably would like to overturn Roe, but I think laws like the one in Alabama and make that a lot harder to do without damaging the courts, reputation late. I mean, I think if roberts's going to overturn Roe, it's probably going to happen in a way that's a little bit more under the radar a little bit more gradual, a little bit certainly more something that you could see coming in the sense that the would have painted it what it was going to do before. But I think the backlash produced by something like this, Ella Bama law might give him pause. And after all, this isn't the first time we've been in a moment like this in nineteen Ninety-two, everyone expected the court to overturn Roe and Anthony Kennedy was the presumed, you know, John Roberts. And he when the moment came he didn't pull the trigger and we don't know Roberts may do the same thing but his enough to fire up. The base house is going to play out to the twenty twenty election as we know it's gonna take longer to make its way through the courts. How's it can be presented politically from now till election day? Well, you can see already how President Trump is trying to portray the issue, which is to focus on later abortions. And like you said, you know whatever his claims about infanticide. That's kind of the direction he wants to take it. He's for President Trump strangely silent about things like the Alabama Georgia, and part because he probably knows that they're not politically, the smartest idea. You you'll expect I think, to see the GOP at the national level, emphasizing some of the pro choice, laws, you see in states like New York, or Vermont that protect later abortions and trying to make political head of that. And you'll see I think pro-choice politicians talking about laws like the Alabama law, and what those laws say about GOP attitudes toward. Women kind of revival run women arguments, and I think, in terms of what who benefits the most, I think, it'll energize both sides, the pro-life side because it seems like they could actually get what they want in the near future and the pro choice side because there is an existential threat through. But generally history would tell us that it's easier to be complacent. When you think you're winning. So I would expect it would be a little more energizing for the pro choice side, because they do have I think more to lose in the near term than pro life forces to marry. Thank you for coming on last minute. Mary's professor, flew of Florida State University college of law. The Twitter's at Mary underscore Ziegler FSU, the Elliara FSU in the books after row, the loss history of the debate, which was published by Harvard University press in one, congratulations. Twenty fourteen hundred university press Thomas Wilson memorial prize for the best. I manage script, and then the second book beyond abortion, Roe v. Wade in the fight for privacy. So I thank you for giving us some context on this tonight. And we're going to watch play out, and I'm sure we'll have you on, again as we get closer to election day. Thanks so much. Thanks for having absolutely AM. Seven ninety KABC. ABC dependable.