Sudan, Israel, United States discussed on Pod Save the World
Million dollars in direct aid and investment paid for by the US in the UAE. So Ben, this SST list question is a little complicated for me to answer. Sudan was put on the list of ninety three I remember being in a million meetings with you about this exact question. In makes it really hard for us to the end to get foreign investment. Some people argue that the s designating isn't warranted anymore because Omar Bashir the former dictator is now gone and he was the creepy really had the ties to terrorism but you have no clue rex, we don't see intelligence anymore. So who knows, but this eight hundred million is just a bribe to get the White House something They can call a political wind before the election in my opinion. So then to question for you. Is there anything you can explain about this issue to sort of folks understand? How these processes work or why it's important with the right decision is I guess, and then second do you think the eight hundred million for Sudan will be delivered via pallets of cash or would they find another mechanism? That's a world Oh, deep cut for the listeners at home. Well, first of all, the state sponsored terrorism list is hopelessly politicized tool I mean. Just, consider this facts, right Pakistan is not on the speed sponsors right and and and we know that elements the tax government. The intelligence service had for years basically been state sponsors of a whole range of terrorist organizations. And built organizations that operate. In. Kashmir in in Afghanistan and other places, right. Cuba was on the list until we took them off. And we asked why is Cuban this list and? The only thing they could drag up. was that. Some Basque. Terrorists from eighty people conducted car bombs in the eighties. Lived in Cuba really. and. So we called the Spanish and said Hey. Apparently the only reason these guys are on this list is these bad guys in Spanish said, Oh, yeah. We asked the Cubans to take them because we wanted them to get out of school. They're doing us a favor by hosting these guys and we're like by the way by all accounts, all the room mills they're the trump is gonNA put Cuba back on the state sponsor terrorism list. pre-election, right one more thing. He can try it out in Florida. So this is complete and utter bullshit. This list is some extension of the domestic politics of presidents. It's an outdated tool and and so I think we have to rethink this whole thing. It doesn't mean there shouldn't be some way to designate. Governments for punitive action for sanctioned there should right. But this list is not it I mean this is hopeless. What credibility as a list have? That is just a rotating cast of characters that are basically whoever the current president doesn't like. the second thing is. I think a more profound which is. Why this is our top priority with Sudan. Would like Sudan to recognize. Israel sure Michio absolutely. Yes. But there's a big butter. Sudan is in the middle of a political transition where a peaceful movement ousted this brutal dictator. There's a lot of question as to whether this kind of interim government will follow through on a transition to democracy and allow for credible elections. And a meaningful civilian leadership of that country. There's the biggest concern is that the country's whispering in the ear of the Sudanese military to not allow democracy to our wait for it the United Arab. Emirates, and Saudi Arabia just like they did in Egypt Sudan's neighbour, right. So what was the worry that some of US had about this whole enterprise to begin with that? All it would do is strengthen. Autocracy in the region, and if you have a US government going to Sudan and saying, the only thing we care about is whether or not you recognize Israel a few weeks before the election. So we can have a talking point in Palm Beach and and oh by the way we're GonNa pay you with the Ahmadis who've been telling you to not have a true democracy come to route in Sudan. It's grotesque. Okay. It's not what should be driving the priorities of the United States of America. It's not a good and healthy way to have countries recognize Israel right? That's not how this piece should not happen because of a pre-election bribe in some muscling in politicization of terrorism list right so that's what I think about this whole thing no man look in the frustrating is at this nakedly political play I think is working for some people for whom you know. Israel is their top issue but at the same time, our government is going back to like a fifties style. CI. Coup. Happy. Foreign policy that I think is incredibly troubling reaffirms all the worst things about American. Hemi and you know. Self interest in various countries and is is going to be devastating to us long term I think if we if we. Actively. Help prevent democracy from from taking root in Sudan. We are. You know we are worse than what they say about us. What happens if there's a crackdown in the next peaceful demonstrations and we've given away all of our leverage over this and I want to say I have I have friends who who disagree with me and say, this is so important for Israel and and yes, you can see I'm sure this is having some positive political benefit for them with some voters who care a lot about this but think about is this really the way you want countries to come about normalizing relations with Israel. In the long run is healthy way for Israel to be accepted by the community of nations. Donald Trump and Mohammed bin Salman. Says proxy like strong arming than before us election paying God knows one under the table and not really like it's not that's not how pieces made in sustained. Never mind the fact that I don't believe it's in the long term interest of the Jewish state to have a United States who is supported by white nationalists nationalists, right? Like this is not. The transactional win of chocking up a couple small countries in the column of of recognizing Israel. Is Not worth the greater risk of emboldening this brand of politics. In the world in the US and the world yeah I agree. Okay, you mentioned Pakistan the minute goes there. The former president of Pakistan. A Caesar Dari was indicted Monday on on money laundering charges that his supporters say are part of a broader campaign by supporters of the current Prime Minister Imran Khan to punish or stifle cons political opponents. Zardari. If you don't know about him was married to Benazir Bhutto who is the former prime minister of Pakistan? She was assassinated in two thousand seven before being elected President Zardari actually spent about a decade in prison. US even elected to parliament while in jail and that was on top of any other allegations of corruption that have made against him. Pakistani authorities arrested our sister they arrested Guy Name, Shahbaz Sharif leader of the opposition in parliament in his also the younger brother of former prime. Minister Nawab Sharif. So Ben. I have no idea what to make of any of these charges in large part because I don't think they've released any evidence against Ari but I my gut reaction I guess was to be a little more concerned about the prime minister locking up political opponents than even the corruption itself. But what did you make of the story? Is there anything about Zardari or the Pakistani political system that you think people should know? Well you know it's interesting because this deal this on the interview I'd kind of describes his family's experience with corruption in how however president was it's just everywhere in the Pakistani political system right So yeah these these rumors of corruption dogs Zardari. Just like they dog run con just like they dog every public official Pakistan and I think the basic point is. If you really want to tackle that. There's really sincere desire to get at the endemic corruption, Pakistan. You need to engage in structural changes not selective prosecutions, right? So Zardari may very well of engage in corrupt actions. The problem is when this is how governments act on corruption, it just makes the Pablo population cynical that that quote unquote anti corruption is not about rooting out corruption. It's about whoever happens empowered gets to use corruption as as the vehicle for imprisoning their opponent..