KGB, United States, Soviet Union discussed on Unstructured Interviews
In one's dead okay but okay but you know in the in the old rotate of resistance in the Nazi Times. The the Communists sales were organized in threes and there was one liaison that it was a liaison to another group of So it would have been very difficult to like erase Leeann Tire Organization and this is how this is how communists used to operate in clearly. It is significantly superior to the way the American intelligence works. Because you you leaders at the highest level. Oh that's true I mean I'm not praising the internals CIA has some pretty embarrassing history themselves. Sure but we're we're talking about nowadays. I mean there's lease coming not as much anymore out of the White House now. How's that that's just not acceptable? Especially when it comes to matters matters of national security and and that's one of the reasons I can't. There's a lot of things I can't tell you and what I what I have found out about my own existence ends and how the KGB operated is through people like Peop- folks from the FBI. That I know my my my new friend and newspaper interviews I myself was pretty dumb and blind. Suren I again. I don't blame you for that. I was just thinking that the expense of your training gene. And everything else to not really use you that much. That's when I would have saying when I'm like. It seems almost wasteful. Well okay so so. I don't know if they made it clear on the book. They had a really really good plan but unfortunately Fortunately with everything that happened in Communist and we all always had a good plan plan and then we failed to execute so used to plan being sent to the United States I acquire legal documents including a passport especially the passport that was experienced significant. That was the crown jewel and then I would have moved to. Let's say Switzerland Austria and then the plan was to set me up with the company and funnel a lot of money into the company. And you become Elon. Musk or somebody. I've become I've become reasonably wealthy. I moved back to the United States at that point. I don't have to tell anybody how exactly I acquired by wells. I just habit because I wasn't a successful businessman in the US. And at that point I I could have knocked to pretty much the doors of any country club and say hey you want to. And that's what that's when when I would have been able to do some damage but but because of the failure to acquire the passport that option that flexibility. It doesn't did not exist. I mean yeah I had to work my way up. You know twenty five years later I was actually positioned to do damage but you know I had resigned and Longtime before wow. It sounds like. There's a quote about war. That war is long periods of boredom punctuated by moments of sheer terror. Would that be similar to what you had no no. That's a laconic Noah. I'm sorry no no no I maybe I can. Maybe we will draw sort of a parallel. There were long periods of waiting and they were short bursts of action. But you know when you say war that now. That's too dramatic okay. Well a lot of seems like it was boring and I know you've described how it got to the point where the pike craft was tedious. Because it interrupted your day job it did and I'm not making it up. It did it because you know the computer programmer job was rather demanding and so I had to do the some of the things that had had to do with communication such as composing letters and putting secret lighting writing on them and then making sure that I'm not being followed writing a message and mailing. It took about six hours so that was now moved to Saturday so I didn't even have a social life and they did not understand this. Apparently there was no other choice. This is what they instinctively knew and there were a couple of remarks that I heard that indicated that they saw the shelf life of somebody like me would have been ten to twelve years because eventually you become the other person Okay so they assume that you would corrupt overtime yesterday. Dead but now what. They didn't know that that the corruption process was accelerated by having a baby girl in this country. Sure sure and I know that that that definitely changed every in the other person who was responsible for me talking to you she. She has to pivot points. And then it's it's the Mitrokhin fellow who brought the information about me to this country in when I was then apprehended. I can't help but wonder wonder too. Though if the timing of world history didn't factor in the fall of the Soviet Union had had to have an effect and I guess I'm asking asking do you think it would have been as easy to transition into being a full American if instead it was you know two thousand if it was actually nineteen eighty eighty. Okay so you you you making a good point My my staying here was not influenced by by the events simply because I had I had no clue what was coming I I- defied the KGB. You identified the order to return back home in nineteen eighty eight. The Berlin Lynn. Walsh fell in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine I I as well as the entire. CIA had no clue that that was coming. So that's number one number two. I had no idea that the Soviet the union was GONNA collapse to however and he has to. I think he is will question that you asked. If the Soviet Union and East Germany had still I've been stable countries They may have had more resources to find out what happened to me and possibly ably retaliate. They were they were way too busy to figure out what to do with the rest of their lives right and I was wondering wondering if you're welcome may have not been as warm if is in the middle of the Cold War versus kind of after on decide that is probably wrong because defectors have always been welcomed by either side there too valuable based on based on what they know in what they can share with a with a country that that did affecting to Now unless of course you're dealing with a killer or somebody who has committed serious crimes. I don't know how that would work. But but give you an example of a defector who I guarantee you was responsible danceable for a number of killings in and He he came to the United States as as a defector Maybe ten fifteen years ago. I won't name his name in public. He but but he is known He's known he's he's out out in public he's a he's an advisor to the Washington. DC Spy Museum but based on the position that he had indicates he be he must sign. That sentence is no way that that that didn't happen and he's he's still come here simply because he brought a wealth of information with him. Okay that's how it works on the spy world. You know you. Can you tell me what you know and I treat you really nice you know and some of the defectors will treat it a lot better than me they they. Will you know they would wind up in the witness protection program with a nice piece of chunk of money to start over. I and I just was allowed to continue my career. Perhaps because they didn't have enough tasks that they know it rationale. I understand that the the they literally didn't want to disrupt my family was so Americanized Americanized with two kids and a wife and end mortgage and a decent job and on and on to take out of the place where I lived in. Put Me Someplace in Utah With my children I think would wooded done a lot of damage to the kids. Oh yeah well you. You'd already done the job that they would be doing with the witness protection program or whatever you kind of did it to yourself herself. That's a good point without much help you know right so it's like well it ain't broken We'll just just we'll just leave it there. I WANNA reach back why did the KGB recruit you versus the Stasi recruit you. I see Initially when when I first came out in public I I guess that my first recruiter who spoke with me only twice overstock. Because because he was German I since Had developed some reason to believe that the first guy was a German collaborator greater for the KGB. Not Tell you who planted that in me. And I don't think that information make made it into the books folks Into the book. Maybe it did but anyway my my best German friend happened to be a new joined the Stasi eh and he became a major in charge of the Forgery Department and and he pretty much knew that the Stasi did not recruit on behalf of the KGB. He indicated that he may have had something to do with the with me being quoted a aw because he was he was approached earlier than me he was already a member of the Communist Party at the age of eighteen in I joined I was twenty so he was a. He was an early target in an interesting situation. He a year ago gave his first interview. Radio Interview Fascinating what he observed particularly in the last weeks months. Oh of East Germany in how everybody was flying you know running. I'm for the hills. Just I can't even imagine the transition had to be so Razi I mean think about So you sat unnoticed coming. But I know that I know the mentality because I was part of that thinking you you always knew that the communist system was better. You wouldn't let go of that belief you adjust hoping and praying for a better set of leaders because leaders and and so and then and one day the option of better leaders had disappeared. And now if you're middle age mid forties maybe even fifty. You've realized that you know the the cars you joined the life you had lived was either wrong or you're being wrong in the worst way so either way it it was like being hit over the head with a two by four so in that respect I I I was lucky because I- decontaminated very slowly. I mean the cognitive dissonance. It's kind of like getting them now. Democrats or Republicans to agree that the other.