In the Brazilian Amazon has exploded under president Gyre Belson ARO. New data from the country's Space agency shows the rate of deforestation is at a 12 year high. The rain forest is home to approximately one million indigenous people. So what's the impact on on them? them? Gustavo Gustavo Fella Fella does does is is the the founder founder of of Info Info Amazonia, Amazonia, a a data data based based journalism journalism initiative. initiative. He He says says illegal illegal logging, logging, land land grabs grabs for for farming farming and and even even gold gold mining mining has been encouraged by the Bulls in our government. It's threatening indigenous people. So you have a lot of land grabbing and invasions and territories, Indigenous territories by this illegal miners, while the discourse and in both arms of course it's him. I called this is our cat miners. You know these people need to survive and just find some gold in the river is not like that. It's real mining going on were like huge, expensive machines. We've done that need for Macedonia large investigations showing that this is a big business connected to Amster done or Miami and as the pandemic evolves, and gold gets the highest price ever. There's no way of getting out of this because people won't Stop buying gold. The pressure is coming directly to the Amazon and fueling this illegal activities asked me to Boston, hers doing something no, not at all. Both. An arrow has had an ally in President Trump in terms of supporting industry over the environment, But there has been a shift. Incoming President Joe Biden has threatened economic consequences if deforestation continues. Do you think more international pressure could impact both scenarios environmental approach one way It's clear that economic pressure trade barriers my change, but at the same time you see the recent to Abidin mention, kind of energized the base of both of my arms and like that's what they want. They want to our hands on, so he creates a kind of political environment that is prone for the kind of nationalistic discourse as well. Let me ask you this. If pressure from the United States government isn't going to do the trick, then I'm wondering how concerned you are about what is happening in the Amazon and and what you see in the short term as the future there. Look, My main concern is that while this is happening, you know like this back and forth and pressure, international pressure damaged ones get more and more illegal. We know about drug trafficking. Of the FARC in Colombia has operated for years in the Amazon and now the Ambien guerilla group. Exactly so now that they're all mostly done in Colombia, all this trade routes of cocaine have moved to Brazil. The brew and the south part of Venezuela, and the war is fierce there. I don't know if you have looked at some point the home side rates of the Amazon cities right now, they just like the highest in Brazil, because all the you know like a criminal activity off the big centers of the South had moved there because they're trying to control that. And this money is linked to a lot of other illegal activities, including the four station because it's a big way of mounting your money and getting land and it's moving into illegal mining, legal mining off gold. It's huge. Now it's the highest level ever in the Amazon, all the Amazon countries, especially in south part of Venezuela. Which is controlled by the same Gabriel is that left London And so we have a regional security issue that is really building up. Most powerful A Rose is in Sao Paolo. He's the environment investigations editor at the Pulitzer Center and the founder of Info, Amazonia. Thank you very much. Thank you. Lula was a pleasure.