Prof. John Flood, Professor of Law and Society at Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia. - burst 01

Scientific Sense


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Please send up to info at scientific sense. Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen. Dot Info. My guests today's facade John. WHO's professor of Law and society at Griffith University in Brisbane Australia. He's also adjunct professor of law at Queensland University of Technology and Research Associated University College Under Center for Blockchain Technologies, he who suggests on the Bloomberg professional globalization of law and the technology in law. But come John. Hello. Thank you. Sure. Yeah. So I want to start with one of your recent people, professions and expertise hog machine learning, and blockchain redesigning the landscape of professional knowledge and organization. In invite you say machine learning has entered the world of the professions. The different impacts automation will have huge impacts on the nature of work and society. Engineering architecture and medicine or early and enthusiastic adopters. Other professions especially law at late you say at in some cases with leptons adopters. could you talk about you know sort of the landscape all? Of Law, profession and. They today in terms of opting these technologies. Certainly Louis interesting because it's a very old profession is. Often considered one of the. Original traditional professions along with medicine and the church. And in a sense law has used different kinds of technology might say I mean does it? Based around writing. And then the printing press and So on yet that. It's always being based on a craft. A skill which the individual person is that enables them to do, whatever is quote if you like and. said, there's never been a lot of room for any kind of automation. Certainly, the has been space for using. A people who are not fully qualified as low as about as paralegals, people like that, who will do a lot of repetitive work document checking and things like that and so on. But what will get into now is the situation where automation through machine learning. There's other kinds of artificial intelligence. is able to start constructing documents example contracts. Check dollop a documents for particular clauses and things like that mature they're up to date and this incense is. Replacing now, the kind of work that noise will do. So I think in some ways more more of of the profession of law is gonNA be subject to automation, but distinction I would many because I think it's quite important here is that A lot of what lawyers do. Is actually quite. Active that that that that the drafting contracts overtime or or they're reviewing documents to some sort or another or they're getting through particular. Negotiation. And so you know a lot of it is the same, but they build up the expertise through doing these same kinds of were over and over again and What we're now finding is that instead of having young lawyers coming in and doing what you might call the grunt work of checking documents and going through discovery applications where he goes through the size boxes of evidence to decide. which are the appropriate documents you want the emails, the invoices order, this sort of stuff that is the kind of work which is lending itself to automation. And, and so that his taking away a lot of the work which is used for trading purposes with young lawyers and is just doing it much quicker. will quickly I mean More efficiently in many ways and probably expensive much much expensive a Lotta. This work is being outsourced to you know legal process outsourcing India or Philippines South Africa places like that. So yeah, that's that's right and so in some ways, the group of lawyers who do the work which requires the skill, the judgment. Is Reducing in some ways. That pool is getting smaller. Yeah Yeah it's it's interesting. The the distinction that you make between automation. And in my job and let's call it decision making right which is you know a lot of work in the business side of this. So for example. in the nineties in large pharmaceutical company So you think about you know rnd. People might think it has really complex selection of programs that design of them, portfolio management, risk management, all those decisions. Genuine companies be say well, senior managers with lots of experience and intuition make those decisions really well right and so that's statement would automatically implied that machines can really do much there. But what we find in the mid nineties says that is systematic analysis of data make those decisions. Don't better. Actually, I've Tom to humans humans. Always seem to make decisions. These are typically bonding the decision. So if you go back and look at it, alternative experiment has not been wrong. So we have no date to say it was a good decision at typically. So human scaffold, fifty percents of making good decisions So do you know just throwing a coin or letting monkey make those decisions so? Yup We found that even complex decision making that humans hold. you know close to their you know kind of domain I'm not necessarily. So we have machines That could do that much better than I. Don't know there's an analog of that in in law I I. Think The may be actually I mean Two three years ago the royal. Society in England decided to arrange a working party on machine learning. One of the things that they put together a a roundtable on machine learning professions resolved to talk about that night and I talked about the history of professions in technology and. and. I think one of the peculiar things that came out to in relation to law is that law. Has always been a sort of on its own. If you think about medicine, for example, medicines always had the teacher hospital institution that sort of straddles the academic quilt and the practice walls and brings those people together and as a result. INCORPORATES loss of, scientific, work. Engineering work as well computing work and things like that. And that's been the first teaching hospital king into existence in in the French revolution in Seventeen eighty-nine. A long history of that. If you look at law, there was nothing equivalent to that whatsoever and there is in fact, actually a big gap between what academy does on what the practitioners in your do so that As a result as before law has come to this a quite late but what we are. Finding I think is that Certainly the management consultancy finding is that because of the nature of a lot of what goes on in legal office a remarkable amount of it can be automated. So what we are getting now is companies setting themselves up to do this automated work. So. We have companies which do nothing but contract our instruction formation sort of company. The typical lawyer would would say to a client Do you WANNA contract classes. Yes I want this for this. And loyal galway draft contract back with it, and then in the con- comes back against as I need another contract, you go through the same process. which is good for the lawyer but not necessarily good kind. What we're finding now is the company's not can think of a few of them that will, in fact, go into the company's show order contracts. Let's see the entire. Corpus of contracts you've got there and they will analyze them. And basically say, all right. We can create a new contract in automated way fairly easily it may need some modification according to special circumstances but on the whole, it's fairly standard and and they can do that INNOVA systematic world meaning the contracts are reviewed that checked. If they're going to expire marketing, you want an unable just the system will cope with that if you're. Yeah. So yeah. No No. No so I was just going to say yes. So that the distinction you make, you know in terms education sort of systematic graduate level education that because as you say, it is low in one sense of soft proficient. You say in called professions like made it to text reengineering this team has a strong concern ensuring that expertise applied in the public interest when as low little bit different from from bad and economics in some sense sort of in the same same vein we have now made economics at really odd. of mathematics you know north of analytics there. Whether they are actually useful from policy making perspective is left to debate but at least it has been an attempt to make this make economic video hard. So so I don't know A. Fascination has been in in law I very much that will happen in law. Oh there things are beginning to happen I mean let me just boob. At. One example I learned in that workshop that I mentioned the Royal Society held. With somebody from the engineering profession talking about. The difference in skills between people who above forty I'm below forty he said. If he he was about Forty Years Austin design an aeroplane, takeout pen and paper Pencil, and paper and. I don't know anyone under forty could do that would know how to do that go onto a computer program undecided there. So you can see that the incorporation of technology into the academy through to the actual. Occupation. Than phones and things is is already a standard and they're in law. It isn't law. As you said, it's still very much a soft skill although I will argue that there is a difference between the way nor is viewed in different parts of the world. So in the United States A law is I think more tilted towards the sciences. So low in economics is one of the big things in the. US. So you got a lot of people working in the of lower economics who might go onto antitrust work no competition work and things like that which across a lot of economics, mathematics and Statistics and so on. In, say a Europe Australia and so on. Law is more allied towards the humanities. And the classics. So it doesn't have that kind of scientific underpinning in that way. So anything that's going to change in these parts if you like is going to be something that's going to be imported from outside. And is going to have a very dramatic impact when whether it does An and I think that's yet to happen. I don't think there's been sort of Cambrian explosion. If you like in in law, the will be one I'm sure but but law has an advantage over engineering economics or the other areas you might. That's With the nature of the rule of law and absent justice is since law as a a way of ordering society is absolutely crucial to everything else. Then, Law and lawyers will say will look you know we have a special status here is different amid leave engineer. We certainly want to make sure bridges stay up. We don't want down but we can design different kinds of bridges. We can design different kinds of legal bills, but they're also the fundamental rules If you want to you know if you're an engineering company and you want to build a bridge in a different country, you're going to have to do it on the basis of the legal rules, which will be just vise by the lawyers according to the country's there in so on. So in in that was what? I might put in a special category if you live. Yea. Yea. Let me let me push NBA John. So. The. The conference that you mentioned you know the Internet is under forty and engineers at. So so one could argue you know from an engineering perspective could argue e- It sexually dangerous. To not use machines to build aircraft the goes you know all the technology that cap today actually help us make the trap lot safer. granted. If you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and Pencil, you might get the principal right. But, but the technology has advanced so much that you really have to use. Technology to do so in some sense, engineering is pushed back. that. I argue this myself then they were naive engineering school. I had a V exposed at my daughter bent to school. She used the same physics book. Twenty, five. meter. I argue that that is sort of backward because data speed no need for an engineer to really learn Newtonian physics anymore because it is prescriptive, it's deterministic can make machines, learn it very quickly and so why spend all? Right. So so then you know if you think about the the law field. I wonder if there is a senior argument that is to say Dan and tape really good lawyer casts lot of intuitions dot expedients to crap something Contract or a discourse, but then maybe the machine scan actually do it even better We haven't really tested that hypothesis yet. Right be almost have this idea that humans are always dominant. Or machines but that the not be true as technology lancers. So what do you think about that in the in the? It's a very important point actually because the. American bosses. being modifying its ethical rules recently to say that lawyers have a duty and obligation to keep up to date with technology. So we already know the technology is now a an important part and I have to say when when I say the word technology, I mean this at all kinds of levels from what you can do with Microsoft word for example, it strays plug ins all the way up to artificial intelligence IBM, Watson, or something like that So that if if lawyers become. A. Uses of technology whether this small firms or big firms or what have you a under the Aba now they they actually have an obligation to make sure that they are up to date. They can't just say we didn't know what we were doing. So I think in that respect, there is a there was a move. The other move that is taking place is actually the push from from the clients. Now, this you have to look into ways one is with corporate clients. The corporation seen US lawyers have to use noise if you'd like want their work done. PHILOS- money on Chiba they wanted to more efficiently They don't want the best piece of work every time they want something that works and they want officiant. UTA A and so on. So it was interesting I think a few years ago. The General Counsel Cisco. Actually made a speech. Saying that he expected his. Lawyers Law firms who worked for the company to be reducing their fees year on year. Now, that's the opposite of what lawyers normally do, which is to raise them year on year. So say that that's one push which is. Very profound push now, coming from the client himselves who are using the beginning to use their procurement departments in in the companies and things like that to help purchase legal services the other aspects which is just as important in this is if you look at the role of lawyers and individuals. So if you is what access to to legal services, it's expensive lawyers are not cheap they charge our money We don't know how to judge the quality of their work and so on. because. There was a credence which we just know that So. On this is where technology can begin to step in and provide services which are. Efficient and often quite. what very well for the individual saying that this. Technology can be seen to be improving access to justice a Lotta people. Yeah. Yeah yes. I want to come back to this. John. I think this is a very important point. So bent on put has a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty maybe not not the right term, but it's called deterministic. It shows beatty ability and so the determination of quality it's not as easy as hard media India nearing or. Right business economics legal all sorts of well foreign that category and the application of technology sort of a different different meaning there but I want to touch on one of the things that you say in the paper, and that is you mentioned this before and that's about training training the next generation. So you savior regulating bodies professions are involved in the collection and reproduction of knowledge intended to be used by the entire body professionals, and so there was an expectation here that you know seeing it professionals. Is Providing the wisdom that knowledge mission to train the next generation now in a technology driven. regime. discuss vacations right. Our expert is going to be a computer engineer in the future. And so so how does that work from from cleaning and knowledge Asian will I think this is This is a crucial issue in it's one which the profession hasn't. Really. Got To grips with yet I think because you think of technology in terms of Predictive analytics a document review and things like this most law schools are not preparing students for this they may be a a a a causal to on some aspect of technology, but it's not something which lawyers themselves are learning. So I think what is going to happen is we're going to find a blending of skills occurring. So law firms will be sense having to bring in a range of technologists who perhaps have. A scales a straddle, both sides of the lines, the lawyers like this too I think I think we're going to find an avangard Who will begin to develop skills that allow them to talk to both sides of the line, the tech people and? Below people if you likes and there will be people who will acquire develop these skills as well but that's that's still some way down the line I didn't think we're anywhere near there yet, and part of the reason for that I think is that you know law is still a very highly regulated profession and and the regulators themselves are in the same situation they are unsure about what is going to happen and they also feel they have an obligation to. Not only ensure that. Customers clients and consumers are protected but in some ways, the profession is protected to if you like so. You know it's it's a it's a fine balancing. There I. Think. It's a fight balancing act and you'd say if the changing changing things. So going back, you know you care as an individual eighteen status of expert. Some form of encapsulation of knowledge and analysis occurs enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done. is yet to be. So. So let me make a statement John and I want I want your reaction to it so eat in hard sciences eight years against again medicine. Expertise has about a consistent happy of remorse. Whereas enor- economics and business in general, let's say expertise is not about the ability to apply rules but to deal with. and at and if that is true, it has lot of implications rate. It has implications as to how we might divide work. Between. And machine in the future. And the skills that universities need to impart on on on new graduates are also quite different. So I always argued in the business. engineering contexts that universities having changed the dog they get mentioned before they're using the same. Using the same. Out Thirty four years without asking the question are those skills relevant, anymore or more importantly watch. Really relevant for a human being in the future rate. do you agree with that that expertise assert more about dealing exceptions apply? Putting it actually. I. I can see the logic behind what you. Saying I think what distinguishes? A good professional whether it's a good engineer good architect or good lawyer or doctor is is somebody who has a certain? This may sound strange but it's the. Imagination. Creativity. about. Kind of flare that allows them to function on the nausea they they've got and developed over the years and the experience. Gathered from Nova pitching what they'd be doing over the years and so on, and it allows them to see around things in ways which they perhaps would. I can give you an example if you like a law. So I'm in in Germany and some other countries. For example, there's a particular way of bundling together mortgage securities I I won't go to detail about this, but this statute that enables you do it. And then you can sell these securities and get money. In certain countries, the UK, the US, and so on. This, NICI. So in a sense to put this kind of a a deal together it. Couldn't be done if you live. So a bank came to one of the large English law firms and said, look we wanted we want to replicate this in in the UK, want to set a market this we're not the statues off there. What can you do and what was interesting was that the law firm then went back to first principles lawyers who were looking at this went back I suppose they looked at some vape basic areas of law matter your trust. And contract from what have you? I'm from that they constructed elite supplement that looked very much like the one in Germany, but without stat sheet and they tested it and it worked. Out To be credibly successful. So much so that the German government started German legal profession started to complain because they said. You can only do this by statute and these we find a way of doing it three. I suppose using law and there it is an they were vowed shops by but that was a particular example if you like of of what you were talking about, they took the exceptions they went back to first principles and said you know or How would we get? This is where we gotta get to, and this is a way right at the beginning what are the steps we need to take and and? And that's what a good loyal will do if you. Right right? Yeah. So that's very important point. So you in your paper dawn as the DREYFUSS and rice note that the proficient performer immersed in the world of skillful activities sees what needs to be done. But decides how to do it. So as we move into a and other technologies, I think it's important point it is. Right from Dad benefactor culture we have been using humans as you mentioned before in lots of with meted activities big not designed for humans I would I would contend enjoy doing things over and over again, and if you had thought of doing that, yeah, because they have to do it for living right and so so we should be moving to word It would where anything that is with pita on delegated to the machine at automation in the bottom of that and Appealed autonation you can have intelligent automation you can have you know reinforcement learning those types of things you have some aspects of intelligence into the into the two. And deploy humans Don't Miss. They're really good at in some case. I'm. So you know we've been studying the green for ages be our no close. It feels to understand mother. Heck it does You know it's not neat learning it. Oh, BBC of. thirty years ago as see that person again, you could see you could you could have a feeling. Then you've seen that before and and what the brain has done actually not only as he that pattern but also age that matter intuitively for thirty years and say, yes, that face I, guess before. and. So there are some superpowers the brain has reaped have been applying the all all. So for a technology might allow. Look I. Think Technology will allow us to incredibly complex things without having to think about too much I. Mean if you look at the way a port functions, for example, any major port these days they've got millions of containers and ships going through them all the time. So there's a lot of paper going through the you those charter parties, bills of lading guarantees. So the lot of legal work that's being done it, it's all quite standard stuff. I mean everybody. KNOWS, what needs to be done and so on. Now, some people are beginning to think while the best way to handle a port if you like I for everybody should know is to put everything that's going on in the poor into a blockchain so that you can see the whole supply chain. You see when something comes in, you can determine when the goods are being offloaded. When they're being shipped, you can stop making the payments as a result of the. Operation of the smart contracts if you like, and the whole thing would be just one quite seamless. In some ways without that much human intervention really just need oversight Some bits of coordination so on. But at the moment is still a a lot of humans are vote in that shipping people, law people, all sorts of things which is. I think insane. That's a waste of resources. We know that there are people who have all kinds of problems that require that creative flair she like as so why waste money on the routine stuff when you could develop skills to the the real need if you like in that way? Yeah Yeah. So I, want that some that bit that John Blockchain, for example, as you mentioned. So so one reason especially in the professions like law and business humans have an advantage justice dimension of trust. and you know at least our generation we don't really. At eighty level, right. So so having that. Human human touch is still extremely important for us. Now, technologies like Blockchain, for example, actually allows that trust to be tensely decoupled, right? Yeah, and I think I think you're right. Look I. Think I mean one of the reasons we make contracts is because We, don't trust each other. So we we devised these documents with all the conditions in them. Something goes wrong. This is what will happen things like that and so on. What are the interesting things? You know people really rely on contracts are met you. You draw up a contract. And the to business people stick him in the drawer I never look at again less something really really fundamental goes wrong but they know sumit doesn't that never look at that again. So you say value of the contract, what did it actually do if you look at some of the Asian countries say like Taiwan or parts of China, you have a assistant coach Guanxi, which is where people developed effective relationships by knowing each other over a period of time around business that allows them to develop trust it. So You know there are different ways of of handling trust, but we we seem to spend a lot of time on trying to minimize something You know which we don't really do a lot of if you like. So I think one of the advantages of of blockchain is that it just it removes a lot of this from from the equation if there's certain things you know that can happen. as a result off if this thing that systems. Lead happened And you know. As, long as you've got oversight and you can see what's going on than. You don't need to be too concerned about it. It will just do what it needs to do in that way and So. Again. That's still very much in the early stages, but we are seeing situations where supply chains A shipping goods from one country to another can actually be done under smart contracts through a blockchain. Technology if you live. That that is now happening I associate goodful dealing with things like gum counterfeiting if you're. Producing. Particular high-quality could site move our phones or particular pharmaceutical products and so on you know it's one way of guaranteeing the quality of the product is you couldn't I say look you can examine the whole supply chain or the data is there. And you know his Eq- code look at it and you get the whole thing going all the way back The. Again, issues around that if you're dealing with the digital. Is Much easier once you start dealing with physical products then you have. A question of how do you get that first initial digitization of the physical if you'd like to goes on so though some people I know here in Australia who? Run A company called Beef Ledger, which is trying to export beef straight beef to China using the blockchain supply chain, which will. Guarantee the security, and the quality of the goods to the Chinese consumer APP because having problems with this before. But I will tell you now do doing something like that does require that the people you are dealing with. You're going to set this up with You have to have a trusting relationship with you before you can set up a technology that will do away with the So we're still in that. That's really early days. I think another a lot of time way to go right Yeah, but the technology works it. Clean potential one could argue contracts exist because they probably known performance if you have a technology that drives that probably the of non-performance zero, then you can actually get rid of for contract. Yeah limit. It is. Not. Goes back to that earlier point I made that. Most most contracts are fairly standard. You know a routine things they're there to. Record a series of transactions payments that have gone on between people without the to do much. If you like you know once you you're you're doing the business, the contract just kind of records that in perpetuity. So the small contract just takes that into a different area and an an actually does the whole implementation and execution without people to be involved in that too much and there's something goes wrong. But if it if it all goes right then back it is done you need to you don't you think about it Right. Yeah. Hasn't been jumping to another are forthcoming people globalization law at. A time of crisis in the? Global Lawyer and so in the say Nikolai Condom Nieve a Russian economists in the nineteen thirties believed the worst economy operates long sixty year cycles Then he called K. Braves. And you safeguarding coronavirus analysis, the fifth psycho young's from nineteen eighty to twenty thirty. It's you save twenty, nineteen forthcoming John You might have. I think so I think say because I, tell you off the what's happening this year I thought my good I couldn't My God. I was just. Owners because you know a contract device these waves up into into what he calls four seasons spring summer or winter at, and we're in the winter off this fifth cycle if you like this is. All the bad stuff happens and he's news war. Famine Disease I think wait a minute that sounds Yes yes. That's exactly right. A. But one of the interesting things about contractors was that you know he he a because he's A. Solid economists are installing a dip executed. By the way you know he he got fed up ninety that was the end of Nikolai unfortunately but he. He said instead of know if you like the ownership of the means of production are being the determinate for changeover from system system, he said it's it's technology and and that the technology will drive you out of the downswing of the last cycle into the upswing of the new cycle, and and the way that works is the win. You're in this kind of winter period because of the kind of economic. Gloom pervades if you like people tend to hold back in subsurface vestment in terms of technological innovation of what have you and so a lot of energy resources, resources, money capital if you like builds up to a second point when people say we're GONNA go for this is this is it? And that's when if you like technology comes to the fall on, really drives it forward. So from that perspective, what he's saying is that you know come right about twenty thirty. If. Things are going slowly now regarding technology they're going to speed up. In. This period and that's when it will. You know really also take take off and people have looked back over our preceding cycles and they've you know it works if you like not just their. Fantasy theory there are also the people who do Cleo dynamics in history these the quantitative historians and they've done a similar kind of analysis of historical periods and said, yeah, you know there are all these citrical. Processes that take place even revolutions occur and big upset occurs and what have you and and. One of their Perspectives which I find quite interesting is that they say one of the reasons for revolutions come about is caused a lease beginning to compete with each other and and an an I look at say trump in in America and I look at the Democrats and I I I would say Modine, India I look she in China and different groups of elites who are engaged really profound struggle for the future of their countries if you live. Out which again is leading to this kind of potential eruption of activity and a new ways of doing things. Yeah. It makes a lot of intuitive sense gone. So one way to think about this also. There are a lot of excesses. So innovating go good their excesses in the system people to believe that invincible they changed assumptions about. because they don't see any. and. Financial markets to right. So these cycles and real real mass that uniquely talking about you can see the. Happening in the financial markets more clearly. But what he's saying is that he happens mortgage and you ask in this paper in two thousand, nineteen for in many ways go. Crystallization off the settling ketone economic forces lost throat ear Kublai doomed as populous. Separates nationalism and lead clients and I think they have that we have probably the answer to that. But you see I think. One of the points I was trying to make an in in this paper walls that Global Law. If you like is is, is the a kind of synthesis off chaos? How do we bring some kind of order to chaos now once you start seeing the undermining? Of his global institutions, you see trump was withdrawn from the W. H. O.. He's he's are criticized NATO he he won't have the do with the International, Criminal Court and so we've got this kind of real life tension now between a an international legal order that's being built up since the Second World War both Ekit economic and legal order is Global And so we can't just a radical globalization I mean even even with covert, we can't eradicate mobilize ation we've got to. Handle covert the Kobe pandemic on a global basis. Otherwise, we'll. We're lost it retreats to a national. Approach is not gonNA. Work? We'll be defeated in that race is going to be global. Might. Be One of my questions in in paper was will who are the people who are going to be doing this? Kind of bringing the the order to chaos if you like and that made argument that it's got to be the global lawyer. And this is a person who not only understand their national legal system but also able to communicate with lawyers and officials. From around the world if you like. To be able to develop a kind of common. Language common discourse that enables them to stop putting these things together are, and it's not just a simple massa of saying mathematically, it works this way or not. It requires the kind of pulling together of people, but it requires that sort of common understanding which. Comes out of what I was saying about this idea of testing knowledge you know as you got this kind of professional consciousness you know how people ought to behave and how they will interact with you, and then that enables you to be out of bizarre to predict how you can do things and so on and so on. That basis I think we can operate kind of global order. It had a a below the institutional level if you're not kind of private. As opposed to the public according and that will put three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you know I the limit John I don't know if you think this way I limit one could as. Want to stay need for. Countries what does the need for legal system differentials? We set this up with the premise that it's easier to manage small chunks. one could also argue with Edmund Affect. -nology that you don't need to segment this debate that we have done. which might make these types of issues you know. See where you're coming from and I'm going to say yes or no? Yes, I think the home range of of questions that can be handled by the technology the ones we got pay I don't chain, etc. I don't I didn't see any issues there but there are a lot of decisions that needs to be made a book in terms of putting things together and resolve disputes that can only function at a human level because it's not. These are not decisions that are simple binary decisions. If you'd like, it's yes or no it's it's often a lot more nuance than complex about I mean, one of the resources in the World Kiva Zero System, the world amendment which is being fought over if you like is water, a water is probably one of the most valuable resources anywhere and it's you often find that rivers and things like that sort of flow between countries, they form borders. And and you are you know people if you look at the Nile, ESL start stopping in Sudan throwaway down to the Mediterranean. So he goes to countries all three countries, east European and then into Egypt's and so unwell well, who has the right to put it dime at a particular place and things like that all of that has to be cooled in act. You see a not going to be done at a human level that that's what caused the skills in negotiation judgment interpretation understanding if you like of the other people, no machine can do that I got. Yes before we conclude, I want to touch on one other thing So in the paper, you say as technology and culture intersect more and more. Ethical conundrums will intensify these raising questions about the rights and obligations of robots. And go beyond as moves. Three laws of robotics in two issues of rights of all moon. Algorithm, stem serves. So this is this is an area that be Kevin babies even even really form some notions allowed rights of all modes at rights of a are. Sai, gets more sophisticated. Yes. Yes. I do. I, mean I think this is one of the issues we already know some of the problems with algorithms and and you know can we can be are they transplanted from you see what's going on the ethical issues around the construction and implementation of algorithms and things like that. But I I I think looking into the future we all going to rely on things like robots. And various kinds of machines so much more so that if you look at a country like Japan, which is a a an aging population such that it doesn't have sufficient younger people to look after the people who need looking often. So machines, I'll be part of that, and that means people will stop forming real relationships with machines and and so that's when I would say. Okay. So let's think about how we View a potential rights of machine that we give. We give rise to humans. Yes. We know that we give rights to animals. Now we've also given rights to viz in forest in some countries as well as so machines I think our. Next logical step you know do we do we treat them with respect Let me give you one. Very classic example yet the production of. Robots for sex if you like is a major industry at the moment, some manufacturers say they want to program them say that people can act out rape fantasies will do we want that I? Mean you know should we be at first of all? You know? We should be having people behave in this particular kind of way, but even an uncertain if you do it against another human being, you'll be punished for it and you say we'll a machine is a piece of property you should be you should be doing that but I'm getting to think that maybe a machines should be treated with dignity say that we are treat ourselves with. Dixie. This a kind of reflexive situation here what we? Do to machines we do to each other, and they may again due to US depending on how they evolve and and move forward in that way is a very contentious issue. A lot of people would reject that right out of hand I agree I think we've got to stop thinking about stop dining forward because I. think we're going to at some point again. I. Don't know when. But at some point we will be having to deal with that. It's a it's a very important point. Joan. So if I understand you correctly, you know that the rights to animals the rights to inanimate. INANIMATE things like Lubers The recent those exist is because of its effects on humans and can see video a clear link in the future we would see a very clear link between a algorithms and robots ended affects on human. So this is not me You know each not fantasy in the sense that yeah, robots should have rights, but rather it's a more conceptual question. Any fraud did not have rights each going to cabin negative I I think that's absolutely true. I mean just to highlight that if you like this firm called Boston Dynamics that produces. Robots and they produced these videos of these. Now, these robots are resistant being pushed over and things like that, and it was quite interesting because a lot of people say all you can't treat them in this way. This is awful and so what I mean that that's the answer for more fighting to to the extreme extent. But it I think you know on the basis what you're saying, you know how we Oakland. Hold human beings accountable to each other in an increasingly complex world machines have become part of that. We can't just have them all sitting on the edge as though they're not part of who we are, what we are and how we do things. Right. So. Incursion Johnny fuel sort of look forward five years. At. The intersection of law and technology. But you think people see sort of the biggest. I. Think you'll see it two wins. On the you know for the individual The individual, you're going to see a lot of them just interacting. With artificial Tennessee, say lost questions about what my rights for this how do I deal with a tendency agreement? How do I complain against a producer company or something like that or that's going to be automated? is fairly straightforward to do and and it will only need A. Minimal. Amount of human inside of. An intervention if you like. At the other end at the. In I think we're GONNA see more and more technology coming in because as those basic functions that are. Being, carried out by junior people or or paralegals or things like that are the ones which are going to be increasing, automating creasing. I'm. We will replace the humans and just let machines do that because there's no point in wasting human resources on that whether that means we need fuel or more lawyers That's an open question I think it will that we need different kinds of lawyers We will need Roy Moore to logically aware much more sophisticated. They don't it's be programmers or odors or anything like that, but they need to have a quite a a a a strong understanding and gross what's going on in technology in that way if you like so. Yeah. We can definitely see an. Yeah, so I, think you mentioned the so from a structure perspective in all forum DC law firm sprucing to word. It a group of equity partners. Around it by machine so to speak well, I. Think. I was in that paper or another one I. I'm S-. Forecast. Law. Firms. Being. Distributed decentralized we'll tournaments organizations running on a blockchain with with the various people. into setting when they will no I. Think the law firm is still a very strong and powerful is Shutian, that's not gonNA disappear straight away. But certainly the numbers of partners who control things will shrink. They'll that will get smarter as proportion and yes, they will be surrounded by machines and they surrounded by people who are servicing those machines. Your excellent. Yeah. Thanks for doing this weekend. John really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much. It's been great fun and very

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