A follow up to our show with john measham last week now in the seven years of presenting these program on radio national of not received such enthusiastically positive feedback from listeners. As id to last week's episode when professor michel defended the us withdrawal from afghanistan. Well that many of you were persuaded by me. Shamas argument you still wanted whether the baden administrations evacuation plans could have been handled a lot. Better after all the us withdrawal. Well it's been widely seen as a humiliation and embarrassment a betrayal and a disaster. So was there a way to avoid a messy exit from afghanistan. It's a good question which put to join me shama. This week tom. My view is that there was no way to avoid a messy exit. It didn't matter whether donald trump was in charge or dwight eisenhower. Had come back from the dead and been put in charge. It just wouldn't have mattered. It would have been messy. Under any circumstances hell may explain why the key starting point is to recognize that. We're talking about moving. Huge numbers of people out of afghanistan very quickly We moved as it is a one hundred twenty two thousand people in fifteen days and their estimates that there were another six hundred thousand afghanis who wanted to get out and most of them had worked with us in one capacity or another so. We're talking about huge numbers. Now whenever you move huge numbers quickly you have to do. Two things. one is extensive. Planning it has to be extensive on the ground planning and number two at the first sign that there's real trouble at the first sign that the afghan army is collapsing. You have to head for the exits. Those are two necessary conditions so the argument goes to make this work