Camille Makovich, Eva Lukasik, Putin discussed on BBC Newsday
And a hooligan has sent us this report. Red Con la dish was the face of an audacious military campaign. The hands on enforcer of a political plot engineered at the top. To make sections of Bosnia's Muslim population disappear. He is really important because in many ways he presided over the sort of violent machinery of the army. Actually, Eva Lukasik is a historian at Utrecht University. Well, I would say that's probably one of the most important individuals in determining how the war would play out in Bosnia have to go. But you know it was a Bosnian Serb general that led the Bosnian Serb army pretty much throughout the war. So his responsibility and how the prosecution argued the case is that basically he was at the top of a certain pyramid of violence. So to say It began with persecution propaganda that turned neighbors against one another, and for thousands ended in stripper Nissa families fled to a United Nations base designated safe zone expecting protection. When radical Mladic and his Bosnian Serb army arrived, he reassured the displaced crowds with chocolates for the Children and promises of a safe passage. Then separated the women from their sons, husbands and fathers. In the four days that followed, approximately 8000 Bosnian Muslim men and boys were executed. Serbia needs a genocide is the only recognized genocide on European soil since World War two Catherine Bomb burger is the director of the International Commission for Missing Persons, You know now that we've been able to identify almost 90% of the over 8000 men and boys that were executed during those days in July. What is important is that we have scientific evidence. We use DNA as the first line of identification. We were able to link the identity of these individuals back to the original mass grave sites where the bodies had been disarticulated because the perpetrators had tried to hide the evidence. Exume ng the mass grave sites, the original sites and removing the bodies to multiple secondary sites so that evidence could never be found. But through DNA, we were able to piece the bodies back together again. The families were able to bury them. July 11th is coming up. Now it's a month away. But this was important for the families of the missing As soon as these bodies began to be excavated and bear in mind At that point, they still thought they were alive and hidden detentions in Serbia, and this is what they were being told. So slowly. But surely the story began to emerge. So we try to new technology and we revolutionized the use of DNA. For purposes like this, but it's hugely significant because without it, I think The denial again, which is still complicated would have continued. This is an important contribution to justice, every single one of the 161 people indicted by this Yugoslav tribunal. Have been accounted for. Some have died. Many serve their time. This court has an enviable record in terms of international justice for one of its legacy, have the legal vassals sports here in The Hague has any impact on reconciliation in the region? Serge Brammertz is the chief prosecutor at the this last tribunal prosecutions by themselves or convictions. Will not bring reconciliation. Reconciliation has to come from within a society from within the victims, Communities, perpetrators, communities and you need responsible politicians. But what I really think is that prosecution accountability is a precondition to give reconciliation a chance, because if you cannot agree on the responsibilities in the past, if you cannot agree On the history of nations. How can you prepare a joint project to move forward together? Did you ever think that you wouldn't reach this point? It looked impossible in the nineties to have these individuals arrested. Well, it happened in 2011. From Lady Justice Delayed doesn't mean necessarily Justice denied every year. Many of the survivors come together in reverence to remember their loss. No, Some of them are here in The Hague for this final judgments. Which they hope Will results in radical murdered being locked up for the rest of his life. On a holiday with that report, And in the next hour we'll be speaking to Camille Makovich. He's a former mayor, Shelbourne, etc. Who was 16 at the time of the massacre. He fled and walked 110, kilometers for seven days to get to a safe place will be joining us in the next hour. 25 minutes past the hour. Joe Biden is very much on the world stage with the G seven rich Club of countries meeting in a few days. Who gets to meet him and how is a very significant issue a status issue for world leaders. A few days ago, Ukraine's President Vladimir Zelensky was saying in an interview. He really really wanted to meet Joe Biden before the U. S president had a scheduled meeting. With Russia's Vladimir Putin. Zelinsky offered to meet Biden at any moment and at any spot on the planet. He didn't get a meat straight away, but they have spoken on the phone. Sedensky has been invited to the White House this summer. And of course, they had a lot of issues to talk about. Olga is a journalist in Ukraine and joins us on the line from Kiev. There was a certain desperation in the tone of the wasn't there that Zelinsky really wanted to have a sort of a face to face meet, or it was certainly a conversation before Biden meet Putin, Will he be satisfied? With a telephone conversation and an invite for later. Good morning and thank you for having made pleasure. Well. First of all, this call is the second call between Zelinsky and Biden after Biden took office in January this year, And finally, there is an invitation to the White House, something that's a landscape was expecting since he became president of Ukraine in 2019. You and the listeners probably remember the scandal with that led to the impeachment process against the former U. S. President Donald Trump. At which was actually the conversation with the landscape and trump that was basically asking for a quid pro quo from Zelensky, saying that he would be invited to the White House if he launched a trial if he supported the trial against, uh the Biden. That's right. Yes, yeah. These ties to Joe Biden's son. So, uh, Zelinsky was denied a meeting. Then there was no hands at the meeting at his first conversation with Joe Biden earlier this year, and then finally, there is an invitation. So, of course, on the one hand, that's a big victory and the big delivery herbal for Zelinsky will be meeting in July. We know that already from Talansky's statement, his office statement On the other hand, Of course, there is some disappointment, probably for Zelensky that this meeting will follow Joe Biden's meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin scheduled to take place in Geneva in June. 16. Why? Because you know that Ukraine is at the state of war with Russia, basically the fact so the your is not, but the fact that it is Russia has been concentrating troops on Ukrainian borders. And since April, there is a gas pipeline North Stream two Russian gas pipeline that is almost completed and other pressing issues that the lets you wanted to discuss with Biden before him, It's Putin. Now. These are very big issues, but there seems to be Sort of a tone of Biden of opposition of Resistance Tutut in much more so than under Trump. So does Zelinsky Hope for advantage. The North Stream two bit of a disaster for the country, and yet do they have hopes in the future? Well, Definitely. There is more hope in Ukraine and in Ukrainian government and president Zelensky that under the Biden administration, there will be more substantial US support to Ukraine. More substantial that it was during the Donald Trump times so and nursery into is one of those projects that the Lansky hope the U. S would help, too. Block it. Although the project is on the final stage of construction, and during the call, we know that they discussed this gas pipeline with Lewinsky, saying that this is not an economic project that this is Security threat, and he also hinted that some security guarantee should be provided to Ukraine. If the North Stream two is completed. We don't know what does that mean yet and from Joe Biden's statement? We only know that the the president's discussed the need for close cooperation on energy security, so that probably also means North Stream two different. This is a vital issue. Because it would deprive Ukraine of its transit face. Gas transit. Exactly a lot of money at stake. Their older, many thanks indeed. All go to karaoke..