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Automatic TRANSCRIPT

I'm songwriter. Charlie harding and I'm musicologists needs Sloan where the host of switched on pop a podcast about the making and meaning of popular music. Every week. Charlie I break down the most interesting hits trends ends in artists to understand what they're doing what they're saying and why the songs are so infectious. We've recently broken down. Billy eyelashes music with her brother and collaborator operator. phineas dissecting chance the rapper with super producer felder and covered everything from Dolly. Parton to Scott if you love music you're going to discover something. The era opening in switched on pop. So join US search for switched on pop in your favorite podcast APP and listen to episode about your favorite artists and subscribe for free on Apple podcasts. spotify or ever you're listening to get new music explainers every week and after listening you might want to check out. Our new book switched on Pop. How Popular Music Works and why it matters at your favorite bookseller? Thanks know I'm just in his something like this ever happened before Country accidentally shooting down a plane. Full live civilians yeah. Unfortunately it's happened several times in nineteen eighty eight in the Iran Iraq war Thir- were immense tensions nations in the region. There was a huge threat to international shipping industry of WHO's incredibly credibly vital shipping lane so the US Navy dispatched several ships to patrol the waters and sort of make sure that both estates were respecting international shipping at one point in early July nineteen eighty ace and Iranian Airlines flight took off from from a southern port port city and the US naval ship nearby mistook it for an F.. Fourteen fighter jet and fired two missiles and down the flight killing killing everybody on board mostly around citizens and evaluating information available from the Persian Gulf. We believe that the cruiser USS been sands while actively engaged with threatening running surface units protecting itself from what was concluded to be hostile aircraft shot down and Iranian NEOM airliner over the Straits of her Moose. Government deeply regrets the sensible in that moment. A lot of those fears about what happens when a military military sort of overreacts came alive all over again the US military express their dismay immediately but they didn't take responsibility information that is available to us that the commanding commanding officer operator or other conducted himself with circumspection and considering information that was available to him followed his thirties and acted with good judgement and other Berry crying period of time the US military very similar way to what the Iranians did just this month. They sort of making excuses for the aircraft was not in the air corridor that would normally be in the air quarters. Orders a limited amount of airspace and he was outside of that whether that is Started saying you'll wealth. The flight was operating under military frequency. The flight started descending quite rapidly in an aggressive maneuver and they started goes trying to set up justification for the shootdown now in the months that followed a lot of the other intelligence and Radio Communications radar imagery showed with that in fact the flight was transmitting on a civilian frequency as well that it was quite obvious. It was a commercial airliner that in fact the flight was ascending not descending and that a lot of the claims that were being made may have been well believed in the moment but we're ultimately wrong. It sounds like there is an established playbook for this and that playbook is whenever you shoot shoot down a plane accidentally. The first thing you do is lie about it not even necessarily lie but you kind of weaponize information you have in front of you to sort of skirt responsibility right so you know. I don't really have any doubt that those on the ship did believe that an F. Fourteen was heading their way with the intentive sinking ship. That being said obviously there was more checks that they need to do to confirm that it was an F. Fourteen and not a civilian aircraft. How does the U the US deal with its accidental downing of a civilian aircraft it starts proceedings at the UN and in Court of Justice Government the Republic of Iran considers this a pe- meditated active aggression and a premeditated cold blooded murderer hairdo and they go to court? Basically saying America needs to be held responsible for this America all the while is expressing sympathy. It sort of acknowledges when you know that this was done in air but never actually apologizes and it never really takes responsibility for its happened. Ultimately that process begins is a full investigation as a real investigation instigation that sort of lays bare a lot of the facts of this case but when it gets to court America basically says we're looking to settle the United States and Iran have settled Iran's claims against the United States which were filed before the International Court of Justice concern and that sort of begins setting the stage for what the case law will be going forward and I think also reinforces to the world that there needs to be rules in these situations. They can't really be ad hoc basis where mayor countries are allowed to sort of accept responsibility or deny responsibility based on how they're feeling that day. So how much does the. US end up paying. So ultimately the settlement nineteen ninety six to about one hundred thirty one million dollars. It's not a huge sum of money. But I think from both sides it was a relatively fair settlement Recognition of the damage. That had done those families. Of course we never really replace those who died but it was a substantial of money and did it create some sort of legal legal precedents even though it was I guess up to these two countries. How much money was issued? Its sort of created a benchmark for what a reasonable settlement looks like American never accepted responsibility. Never apologized and that was something. Iran on always demanded years later when the captain of the ship that was responsible for the downing was kind of celebrated and recognized as a hero and in the US military Iran was was absolutely livid all over again so there there's always been this retention where America has never quite owned up to what happened in its entirety and in Iran has has always been sort of sore about that but it sort of sets rules on what happens when a military down two civilian airliner and sort sort of lays the groundwork for investigations. Look like when that happens. You know who's responsible meal is the kind of sets the legal framework to actually bring someone what did bring a foreign nation to court in an instance like this and now ironically Iran's in the position of being the aggressor who might might need to pay out to countries like Canada Ukraine and its own citizens. Yeah that's right and I it sort of turns the tables. It's why it's so difficult. Take credibly a lot of attempts by Tehran to sort of throw this back in America's face because they were the ones clamoring for this credible process that features a serious investigation A real court process and a real penalties and ownership and recognition of what had happened up something that basically kind of uncomfortable with doing now. Who's going to be in the position more so here to ensure that Iran is held? Held accountable is in Ukraine Canada. We saw conversation begin around. What a legal process should look like when win a military downs a civilian airliner? There's something called the Chicago Convention and the Chicago Convention Governs how commercial airliners are supposed to operate from one country to another. It's supposed to be international standard for how planes take off and land and fly through other countries airspace. So under the Chicago oh convention it's sort of recognizes different parties for different responsibilities so as part of the investigation. The manufacturer of the aircraft has sort of special status in terms of you'll leading the investigation though that is sort of designed more for mechanical failures. The country the flight was destined for has has standing to run the investigation. But it's also not totally defined. I mean Canada has insisted on sending investigators already sent. I'm a couple. It's likely to send me more. There was some reticence by Iran seemingly give them visas They've now been award of those visas and the likely in Aron right now and and more likely to show up but I think Canada has to sort of force itself into this. I mean I don't think Ukraine is necessarily incredibly invested vested in in the region. You know it has its own sort of concern story but right now the majority of the victims from from abroad where Canadian so I think it really puts the onus on Canada to step in here. What's more Canada has long pressed to the Iranian regime for for changes around human rights the round democratic processes to sort of try to press it to stop funding terrorist organizations in the region so I think Canada has already exercised? Is the fair bit of pressure on the Iranian state. It has been supportive. Do not a party to the nuclear deal with European Union and the US which I think again puts it into a good spot to actually use what leverage it has to go after Tehran to to do this properly Canada had substantial sanctions in place against Iran? Up until the last couple of years it removed those sanctions and I can imagine that putting them back on. We'll be on the table now. So I think candidate is really the best-placed here. Of course America may see itself being party to the eventual legal process but obviously given the hostility between those two countries and Iran's assistance that America's America's somewhat to blame for the downing. I it puts them in to awkward as a spot to really inject themselves into this process in a major way house. The Canadian Indian public reacting..