Yeah, and I do believe that where the money went is still a mystery. But what seems like very plausible is that Alameda was lost a lot of money trading. I mean, and some level or another that seems to be the case. And you know, this is something that, like I said, I never really heard people talk that much about Alameda, but you know, of course, Sam had a background at the famous quant trading shop Jane street as did some of his colleagues. And so the presentation of Alameda was that it was sort of like this market neutral quantitative trading shop. And I'm pretty sure on the Alameda website, they also talked about that there were a market neutral firm. So not taking big directional that one way or another. But that being said, and you know, if you're like thinking, okay, let's go back and think more about red flags. I do recall, you know, and people have since pointed these out, but I do remember thinking at the time that the former CEO of Alameda Sam trabuco. Who left the company earlier in the earth, some point this summer. He did have these threads that did not seem like very quantity, did not seem like market neutral. And one of the threads that people point to if I recall is like basically like, oh, we went long Dogecoin ahead of Elon's SNL, which maybe, you know, maybe a fine trade, although I think that was the peak. But it's like, oh man, this is not exactly what I thought. What my impression of what Alameda was doing. And I thought what he was doing was making markets and collecting spreads between the price of a coin on one side and a price of a coin on another side or the price of a coin on a centralized exchange versus the price on the DeFi exchange. So I did, you know, I didn't think too much about it, but I did think, I guess it did seem different than what I thought Alameda was doing. We'll be right back with more from Bloomberg's Joe wiesenthal. 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Change can be disruptive, but a Bloomberg we think bigger. Our sell side solutions combine trading and automation with market leading data so you can evolve, scale, and embrace change. This is Bloomberg for the sell side. Visit Bloomberg dot com slash sell side. You said to Friends of the show, Katie and Tim, that one of the signs that crypto is immature is that it's too hard to launder money. Yeah. Without getting caught. Well, this is something I mean, I've been, you know, from day one. It's like this is the question. It's like, well, what is crypto good for, right? We've probably both of us have asked this question of a million guests like, okay, it's fun as journalists that we like looking at the lines going up and down. And it's probably fun to trade big swings. But what is it good for? What is the point of any of this? And you know one of the things you hear, particularly from the Bitcoin side of the world, just like, well, it's good for censorship resistant payments. Doing the payments that the state doesn't want you to do. Doing the payments that would Venmo or PayPal or zell or your bank would kick you off for, right? Trustless money. And yet it doesn't seem to be that good for that either as far as I can tell. And so like, you know, even the sort of like bare minimum things that like crypto proponents often say, which is like, well, person a gets in person B money and persons you can't say no. I'm not even convinced that that's true because again, I think the context we were discussing was like, there was a big test of this with the Canadian trucker protest earlier this year and a lot of that money got to seized or blocked. And that was people trying to donate to the protesters. And so regardless of what you think about the protesters, mission or caused, it struck me as kind of a test of crypto's as particularly Bitcoin's main claims. And I don't think everybody lived up. They didn't really have a way of getting Bitcoin to the protesters in a way that was trustless and could avoid blockage. Well, one of the things that the truckers did is they put a bunch of wallet addresses on their signs and the size of their trucks and they were like, get send us money a year and then various regularly says, we're like, we're just going to launch this walk down. But you don't want the other hand. I think I remember so after that happened, I remember seeing these discussions, even among many sort of Bitcoin profound, oh, they shouldn't have made the wallet address just so public. Which fine, maybe. But I don't think I ever saw a great alternative. Right. Solution, and you know, it's like, okay, let's say you are going to be the focal point for dispersing the money. I'm going to send it to you and you know who the truckers are privately and you're going to disperse it. How do I trust you? How do I know you're not going to pocket it? Et cetera. And so even if you could find a way around the public wallet, episode is like, you still have the problem of trusting the intermediaries. So it's very tricky. And so I thought that that was like a pretty good test of whether Bitcoin's core claims of censorship resistance could be defended and I thought it was lacking. Is there anything that you're seeing in the response to the fallout from algorithmic stablecoins, three hours capital of Celsius Voyager, SPF, FTX that is suggesting what the next crisis could look like. So we did actually have one thought on this specific question, which is that one of the things you're hearing about now in the wake of FTX is this concept where they say, okay, crypto entity is particularly centralized ones. If they're going to be centralized should produce some sort of proof of reserves. And this idea that with cryptographic technology, you don't necessarily have to reveal your entire balance sheet or all of the items on it, but you can prove your solvency in some way. And so you have some snapshot of coins that are yours, and you can prove your solvency. And the first thought that went to my mind was, sure, you might be able to do that. But how do you know that the marks are true? And of course, in tread fi, you know, 2008, 2009, it was always like level one level two level three. Mark Smith, Mark Smith. That's right. And we saw that a bit with FTX because part of the story is how much of the FTT and serum tokens they had. And I think many people would say that those coins were marked to myth. You know, if the next stage of, okay, lessons learned from FTX, every exchange has to sort of like have some sort of cryptographic proof of solvency. Then I think the next crisis after that could have something that was like, yeah, but where do these prices come from and how reliable are they? Because we do see that, of course, with the FTT and serum question with FTX, and I'm not sure that like a proof of reserves had it been in place for FTX, would have necessarily been robust against that failure. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thanks for having me. You can find more of Joe's work on the Bloomberg terminal and on Bloomberg dot com. And of course, on the aud lots podcast as well as the odd lots of newsletter and be sure to check out our twice weekly news lots of Bloomberg crypto. This is Bloomberg crypto, a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions or suggestions for the show to crypto