United States, Russia, Turkey discussed on Overnight re-air of day's programming
Yes. In the blow. Hi, I'm greener Lova journalists in exile journals from Russia, and we, of course, know that Russia is a is a is a state where there's this messy propaganda state propaganda machine. And we don't need an assessment to you know, to decide whether those that rogue actors or not we know that the rogue actors. And I've been calling for sanctioning at least the top officials at the state propaganda machine ACA. You know, the chief editor RT channel and every time I talk to people is rob. I'm being told that now there is this in the first amendment, and including some congressional staffers on the democratic say, so Ben MC question is we know that the Obama administration aggressively lobbied against the Magnitsky act. State Department treasury national Security Council, they didn't want the Magnitsky act to be passed. Hope thankfully did. And we now know that he was a mistake to lobby against him. And my question is aren't we like the US making this same mistake? Now when we do not sanction Putin's as states propagandist. Thank you. This is air. She spread radio programming from Monday WCBS be from Washington. Well, when when I was an assistant secretary of state, I very much wanted to sanction the propaganda, but Roberson ski told me I couldn't do it. Do you want to explain why that's true? So I sort of kidding. I'll take the opening I think we can all agree of about the nature of Russia's state propaganda. And it's terrible effects of the Russian and elsewhere. The bottom line is we look at the two Magnitsky act is they simply don't apply to to sanctioning propaganda. We go back and look at what sorts of crimes are covered. And there was early discussion that looks like the Trump administration is applying the definitions a little bit more broadly than the Obama administration did, but essentially the covered crimes boil down to murder rape torture, enforced disappearance, and yes, the holding of political prisoners are unjust imprisonment. It's important that the crimes that these sanctions given how. Cooercive a tool they are. It's important that we all have a common understanding of how could be applied. This is a very serious penalty. And it is one that absolutely should not be applied on illegal or unjust grounds. And I say as a human rights advocate that this is a tool that if misapplied could be extraordinarily damaging to any number of classes of people, but not least of whom are activists and journalists so when we're dealing with propaganda. It's just an incredibly tricky landscape, and at the end of the day, we need to be very careful when we're talking about freedom of expression. I know this is the answer you you've heard before an expect. But that's not to say that there aren't other means by which the US government should be approaching the. Effects of propaganda. And I think we need to be very creative in how we address disinformation. As anybody that has read the headlines over the course of the last three years could tell you at the mater moderator's discretion, I'm going to interject with my own question for the panel. I I always find it. Interesting to probe unintended consequences of policies. The United States does harkening back to our Patriot Act and are anti-terrorism laws in the years after nine eleven we've seen countries all over the world, adopt around anti-terrorism laws, which have been used to crack down on expression. Is there a potential that that Magnitsky could also be misapplied? Instead of like, I don't know. But if I were a creative dictator, I'm pretty sure I could find a way to accuse a dissident of a human rights violation because he upset the public stability or something like that. Can you can talk a little bit about maybe the nuance here in trying to propagate a set of human rights laws that ten not be misconstrued. The do the exact opposite of what we want them to do. So the bottom line is that the dictators already have tools at their disposal to use against activists. Including the misapplication of the law and up to and including murder. I don't think we should let that argument. Stop us. Now, we should have safeguards in place. And this is a topic of conversation with the Europeans. They think about their own law. We need to make sure that anybody that's designated input on what's called the specially designated nationals list that the treasury department maintains that the evidence evidentiary base that went into that designation is airtight. It's very important that the person designated be able to show at the end of the day that they either were designated wrongly, and that that designation can be challenged either administratively or through a quarter of law which exists in the United States war, and this gets to the heart of what sanctions are all about the person has changed their behavior and that should be delisted because the global Magnitsky act is so new that hasn't occurrences. Not yet. Come up, with the exception of the Turkey case, I mentioned earlier after Brunson was released but in other sanctions programs. We have seen instances in which the designated individual petitions, and ultimately is is delisted given a change in behavior. But coming back to what dictators are going to say, they already have all the tools, so I don't have much sympathy for us necessarily needing to rebut that that line of thinking. I would say it's important for the United States to realize the role that it plays around the world. And so you alluded to the terrorism laws, and you know, to put things in perspective, the most common charge that is used to jail. Journalists in the past three years have seen record numbers of journalists. Jailed more than two hundred and fifty each year. Is anti-state charges such as supporting terrorism, I'm providing support to a terrorist group, terrorist, propaganda, etc. So it is and now we've seen it with fake news as well. As the fake news rhetoric has spread around the world. We're seeing that more countries are proposing fake news laws that would restrict and punish criminally. Punish the dissemination of so-called fake news? We've seen the number of journalists imprisoned on false news charges rise since not rhetoric has increased. And of course, we can look at specific examples going back to the Russian propaganda one where the whole discussion about faira in the foreign agents registration act over RT in the United States led to retaliation in Russia creating their own approach to faira and using that to apply not only to US government funded. Entities media entities, but also to CNN and other broader media entities. So it's an issue. But you know, as rob said, I think it doesn't seem to concerning in the Magnitsky act at this point. Courtney radish committee to protect journalists. Thank you very much interview. Based in Beirut, Lebanon reason said about Beirut Lebanon, because we have the national criminal about a Hariri was assassinated. But in this case, we have more evidence about has you case who was murdered in the embassy and instead of going through the sanction route international tribunal could be. At least. Agreed upon or at least we should take the legal you've been in the congress to have. Or whatever. Turkey by itself, by the way, called for such thing. So I think protecting journalists probably the legal approach with an international law or. It's more probably acceptable either nationally, then sometimes the selective application of sanction on on certain country to be perceived as really selective morality or selective. Justice. I can take that. I think when I was a US diplomat the prime example, the critics of the United States pointed to to argue that America was selective in its use of human rights tools with Saudi Arabia. So I think if we are if we use a strong human rights tool against Saudi Arabia, actually, a fairly good example of the United States. Placing values ahead of its relationships. It would not be seen as selective that said if there were an international judicial or legal mechanism that could be applied here. I would be very strongly supportive of that. My guess is that it would be harder in practice to put that into place because I doubt that Saudi Arabia would cooperate. I doubt that they would produce suspects to be to be tried especially since the chief suspect is potentially the absolute ruler of the country for the next fifty years. If if that is allowed to happen. And so the Magnitsky sanctions tool becomes something that we know is at least available to us, even as we pursue other traditional mechanisms with response to your question around the international role. So at the committee to protect her analysts. We don't believe that there is only one path to Justice for the murder of Jamal choke. She in so we have called for an international United Nations criminal investigation by the secretary general. We held a press conference at the UN with Human Rights, Watch reporters without borders and amnesty calling for this we've met with the secretary general's office and with several Member States, and we understand that Turkey has expressed its openness to that. So we would like to see the UN secretary general launched their own investigation. I think that the UN special rapporteur on extrajudicial killing and her initial fact-finding mission to Turkey indicates again that there is very significant. Evidence that the crown prince was involved and so further the call for an international criminal investigations, though. I don't think that it's an either or it's both. Right here in the Thai. Thank you very much. Alex hasn't independent newsagents Toronto. And appreciate. According to case, I think we should keep in mind that imam Ali of sedation. We had a congressional action. Durbin amendment was actually calling everyone every single person involved in his case could be sanctuary. I think that's strong. Government took it. Quite smart little that. Hey, you know, they they are they gonna come after president everybody involved. So my question that my colleague from Russia. Us. We know about what we know about John contests where the first family MAC. They are the ones ordering is no res- or they decide who gets in an obstacle in this station. Going after some small, let's say let's say highlights somewhat smaller. Listen officials really. Doesn't restart effective. If you go after the robot. Discussing you know? Money that we have another draws in prison. I've come what what we heard from his? Station. In jail that some high level officials in jail are basically trying to get involved into Turtur because they are to a fact that they might get promoted because names will get out of their governments with talk about them. They don't have an interest. They they don't wanna company US in the first place. So is that how much should we align on knowledge about how conscious being managed and what kind of assets do they have what I go off of that? When we think about sanctions on my second question, if you don't mind, I appreciate the congressman being here. And thank you for being involved. We heard for missing last weekend. He drew a red line against those who are naming his crown prince. And I think this is sweat. And I also think it's actually about congress because congress just passenger solution, and ultimately, how would you respond threat? What we will respond to that threat. I hope by passing legislation that crosses his red line. Congressman Tom Malinowski threatened members of congress. If you want to influence us, that's a very very bad idea on your first point around. You know, how this is being used having meant to answer beige on twice including on press freedom mission related to to journalists who are in prison. I think that. The interest that the alley family house and visiting Europe and vacationing there and all of that indicates how important it could be for the EU to adopt as the more type of legislation. I mean, I think US global Magnitsky act is great if you have that relationship with the United States, and if you keep your money here, and if you own real estate or all all of these other interests, but again, it will improve an strengthen the impact if we can see this globally..