"To be out in the world a bit more and for my particular role that was hard to do. I was at a small liberal arts college where things were very socalist on physical presence on the campus and providing mentorship and support in that capacity. So I kind of did a parallel move where I, I done some administrative work and thought, oh, this is so interesting that I actually like working on behalf of creative people as much as I like teaching and. In some ways. I started to find that that kind of leadership administrative kind of work enabled me to have more creative energy for my own studio work. And that was really the sort of clincher though I love that I left academia to get an a second degree in design and technology just so I could really kind of focus and think about like, is this what I think it is? And that sort of gave you the opportunity to dive in and sort of think more and have some more hands on experience with what kind of stuff I actually liked to do. You know, sounds like an all come and feeds into each other. You know the educational experience of teaching experience feeds into the strategy work as into the studio art, which I guess is a good thing. You're always pulling from like this constant well of inspiration when you talk about it always sounds like it I planted and it just falls into place. It always sounds so neat. When when I'm talking to people who are just starting out their careers, I'm like, does not what it feels like is just what it looks like. You. So I think the, you know, the fact is that like everyone right now, it may be studying something as like studying something that won't even exist. By the time you hit the professional, the professional sphere, most likely now does your current studio work still have that same technology focus? You know, it's interesting. The last thing that I did was a game design project and it was it was a commission for NYU game center, and I was the only artist in that group who had something that was completely analog. Like I did a like role playing game that was face to face real time. No technology. It was about technology. It was all about imagining how technology might work, but there was actually no tech in the experience. So I don't know the more I helped pe- other people think about what they should be doing. Sometimes when I have time on my own, I and obviously still engaging with technology, but I've. Not creating digital solutions are create projects right now. This real time RPG. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Like what was that? Sure, sure. Yeah, it was a lot of fun. It was called lesbian and it was all about because I was running. I was commissioned to run a game that would basically run in one evening. It's an interesting exhibition that NYU game center does every year called no quarter, and it's sort of a game expo there about four of us who were commissioned to do games, and I was really interested in thinking about queer spaces and specifically thinking about the kinds of spaces that we create intentionally and what you tohp, how utopia can often become dystopia. So I basically I set my game on a lesbian separatists commune and made the every game table. Basically the minute you sat down to participate in the game, you become. A member of this lesbian separatists commun-. Then there's a game runner who is a call to game dyke and the game dyke runs the game, explains it to you helps you understand it, and then you're basically faced with historical, some fantastical, mostly historical issues that have faced these kinds of separatists communities over time. So you take your, you know, your given tools and strategies are sort of cards you're given, and you have to use your tools in strategies to come up with solutions to whatever problem has been placed on the board."