Jordan Peterson, Canada, Murphy discussed on The Jordan B. Peterson Podcast


Next Murphy's interview with Jordan Peterson wrote the join me now is probably by the world's most famous intellectual certainly most famous intellectual Canada in the last twenty years and he will be with me about the role of the university and about his meteoric rise to intellectual and media influence Dr Jordan Peterson I'm going to start on on an incidental thing at least to me and has bothered me since you became known as it is now to all the world and that was in very early days of the the controversy that came to you when the University of Toronto sent you some military letters that I thought I've used this word before insolent that I thought were against the spirit of university that they weren't supporting you there are actually threatening you yes and that said to me something beyond the converse something deeper is wrong here that universities are this diversity is is upside down how did you reason that how did they get there they could be so completely unaware drone decision well I think a lot of it was was confusion and and the lack of experience with this sort of thing I mean University of Toronto is a peaceful place and rather conservative university all things considered the administration isn't prepared to handle a controversy of the nature that swirled around me they were used to making enter administrative decisions and when they were put on the spot and forced to defend their fundamental presumptions let's say it isn't clear that they were ready and prepared to do so partly because of lack of practice it isn't necessarily the case that you climb the administrative in university by engaging in continual philosophical reappraisal of the fundamental presuppositions of university as an institution you know it's much more of job and so I'm going to say everything I can in favor of the University of Toronto before I say thing I've found too that when I've been put on the spot by journalists and ask to defend let's say customs that everyone has always accepted like marriage yeah it's very difficult to generate a hence for such institution off the top of your head let's say because part of the whole purpose of customs is that everyone except you don't think it reflects the they're unstated presuppositions and so when you put on the spot you don't know what to do when I first got the letter the first letter and I know how HR departments work they send you one letter of warning so that it's documented and then they send you another so that it's documented they send you a third and if you haven't ceased by then while then they go to the next step which would be something to do with whatever approximation determination they might do document you yes yes and they're documenting all the steps and I told the person who delivered the letter to me whose personnel actually got along with quite well that it was full of errors and it was poorly renton and that they should take it back and properly followed and because if they were going to do this they better do it right there there was going to be trouble and I didn't mean that I was going to cause trouble necessarily but that there was going to be trouble but they didn't it back so I read it on Youtube so and and then I did the same thing with the second letter and then I met the Dean and after that and we'd agreed we had a quite congenial discussion I would say and we agreed to have a discussion at least a debate would never was a debate it was I don't know what they call those now they can't be debates they were forums or something something not a debate about free speech on campus that was the three sorry I saw that it was quite was but they did do it which which was something you know and I've also heard that behind the scenes because I had some friends who some colleagues who have some access to administrative decisions and they believe that the University of Toronto in the aftermath of all this has actually reconfirmed its internal commitment to free speech so and you know I don't know how much of that is true but I'm willing to give them a certain amount of of benefit of the doubt but it's important to understand that people can be caught unaware and the other thing too is that they actually did me a bit of a favor because one of the things like claimed in the Youtube video that I made was that what I was doing by making the video was probably illegal yes I remember and their lawyers basically said it was probably illegal and so that also helped establish my bonafides let's say as a reasonable interpreter of of the law and so it wasn't all bad although it was extraordinarily stressful that demonstrations that followed how is it that any university which is of all things obviously the exercise thought training in mind and therefore the power of expression that comes as a result goes to things that the say things we're on the banner of reason and exercised mind that's what it is so how come how comes at that on certain issues the transition under one of the politically correct once that suddenly I don't need his language being being bent it's been turned upside down in some cases it's also geologist's are floating out Derby seconds with new rules on them to a word you never heard yesterday is somehow or other prejudice if you say today League to very much like the idea of dead naming the very one I was thinking that didn't exist two days ago and now if you dead someone doesn't exist you're in violation of something or when have we let go to straps that kept us either just something light reason or whenever we lost our nerve that when people come to you and they say two things that you know not from bias are nonsense that they can simply be dismissed as nonsense with no peril whatsoever well you're all you're assuming that we have nerve I mean sorry I mean so some people have nerve but one of the things I've learned over the last three years because really this all started North Tober of two thousand sixteen was that the percentage of people who have nerve is very small and vanishingly small you know I've met People Douglas Murray has nerve yeah that's sure Roger Scrutinize nurse. She has Lindsey Shepherd has nervous yes there's a handful of people that I've met who you can't move and one of them I would say try well succeed I would say it and I've met a number of journalists who've I've had my fair share of conflict with journalists that's for sure I would say talking to journalists is the most stressful thing I've done apart from talks at university campuses journalism that's just a sidetrack because very good issue journalists I've been playing at it from margins for a long time the journalism is very much corrupted it is not the media in the middle it is in many cases wittingly or unwittingly partisan it is part of the game that it says it's covering journalism is one of the failing institution yes as much as universities well you know there's there's technological reasons for that you know the journalists journalism as such is under unbelievable pressure from the new technologies you to podcasts in particular which of course also vastly expanded what constitutes journalism and so journalists are running scared it's very difficult for them to to find paying jobs it's their staffs for sure inking the newspapers are in trouble television stations are vanishing and so there's increasing desperation I would say as well as decreasing professionalism among those who still practice and so some of it's the personal failings of the ideologue who happen to be occupying positions at eighty logs occupy but some of it's a consequence of these transformations in in in communication technology that are so vast that they're actually is of people which is one walloping network yeah but podcast maybe ten times as popular so it and that's all underground interesting yeah they don't attract as much attention or as much much controversy maybe because they're more silos in some sense but the journalists are fighting a losing game and and I think as you fight a losing game I've seen this happen with corporations you lose your best people first and then the death spiral begins and I think we're seeing exactly that and then that's exaggerated by this proclivity to polarization that also might be part and parcel of the technological changes okay let me let me sweet back to that were nerve I know because I follow you how deep your respect and attention to Alexander Solzhenitsyn is if he's if you have a hero obviously is it now in the Soviet Union should be gone styling he had steel over here when okay we have trans activist group that's the thing yeah and you almost almost innate we know that this is absurd and you say well I don't think I'm GonNa say it's absurd what are we afraid of we wars and say we gave all our soldiers will preserve democracy and freedom of speech there is no there is no loss if you decide to challenge in terms of any contrast with the totalitarian systems where if you said something you really did pay a price we're seeing new over here lose job well you could be hauled in of quasi-judicial Tribune's as well I mean they're certainly willing to do that I think the human rights tribunals should my opinion they should be AH travesty they're they're they're yes we're setting up these quasi-judicial in positions in all sorts of constituted because I read the biographies of some of the people who were I wanted to be judging their own calls in this context it's because people judging the causes precisely but I think what's happened in British Columbia with this case's what's what's the person's name Jessica or Jonathan I prefer Jonathan Jonathan in front of the charge and I asked the question if sixteen people are of this mind and one person's of this who is the which is the more likely the off yet well it it seems it seems irrelevant I mean it's a consequence you know one of the things I pointed out with Bill C sixteen was that it contained multiple Oh contradictions especially in the background policies which I had read in quite a bit of detail they were formulated in Ontario although the Federal Government remove the link on their website to those policies after I pointed out the fact that link existed which I thought was unbelievably underhanded and still believes central states of being in the world and if you entertain a set of propositions that are internally contradictory then you're going to run yourself into all sorts of sharp objects and and and and and dead ends and that's exactly what's happening and it it it every time and I thought this really for three years every so you think that there's no possible way that this can get more absurd than one more example comes up where it's more absurd and I would say the situation in BC's precisely that I mean one of the women that he's persecuting because I think he and this.

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