Professor, Harassment, University Of Chicago discussed on Patti Vasquez


Wars and all the changes that have gone on in the Star Wars universe because change is inevitable. No matter where you are. No matter what you're doing changes happening. But if you're like me, you start to wonder what how did how do things start to change in? How did how do things like me to all of a sudden get trash, and how do things like black lives matter how social changes civil rights voting sexual harassment? All these all these things change or maybe in this day and age in this political climate, you're thing how did how political movements start to change? Well, I cannot give you the answer. But the man who can is professor cash sunshine. He is with us. Now, he's the Robert Walmsley university professor at Harvard Law School. He also has taught law at the university of Chicago. And he was the administrator of the White House office of information and regulatory affairs in the Obama administration his latest book how change happens is. Is on sale everywhere. And it is a fascinating fascinating piece of literature versus state. Thanks for taking some time to join me today, thanks to close to here. So a lot of a lot of questions, and it was as I was reading through the book and trying to figure this out. I I kept thinking well where can we start because to answer to ask the simple question. Well, how does change take place? There's so many levels to that question. I do want to start though with the role of social norms because that seems to be a running thread throughout the book that social norms really do have a role in in change first of all can you can you tell everybody what you mean by the social norms. And then how are they so instrumental in change? Social norm, basically refers to what you're supposed to do. So maybe if someone is acting appropriately you're supposed to grin and bear Barrett's. Maybe the schools are segregated. You're supposed to smile and go to the ones that you're assigned. Maybe if. Kinda not allowed to be scare lesbian and do our closeted and social norm. By me that if you liked President, Trump peak grades, or is being great, you might not say that because the Norman your community might fit that. So sometimes norms can make for political correctness with very large. Meaning, you know, it's not correct to say one thing or another. We'll have that sometimes norms weekend or soften. So there might be a norm that says that sexual harassment at some crimes is okay, even wall, and that nor might start to collapse as people start saying to or maybe someone says like, Rosa Parks and go to the back of the bus and that kind of starts to shout the norm. And when the dorm starts being shattered, then people start saying what they really think and then societies can go wash her changing, very rapid here. Now, you mentioned in the book, though, that one person you, and you just referenced Rosa Parks that one person is it's usually very hard for one individual to make that change happen is it, let's take Rosa Parks. For example, is it because there were so many people already who were questioning that social norm that it just took one person to put a crack in that wall. And then everything was able to flow a little freer because sometimes as you mentioned in the book one person speaks out, and they they could be ostracized because they're not they don't have enough support at that point. Yes. So the says exactly right. So the key point is that if there is something inside our has saying that something is wrong or bad. If one person says publicly nothing is wrong or bad. We might think. Well, they're gonna get in trouble or they're crazy person. Or what's the point? It might involve the varmint it might evolve animal welfare might his Gration one way or another. And if we think that we're gonna be just with one crazy person. Then what's the point of that a purchase? And she's a woman tremendous, courage. Of course, it's not just the case though, that she was speaking for the hitting the views of many millions of people. It's also when she spoke for them so to speak by doing what she did. There were claw of other people who are doing something like that. Or who are prepared to do. So it's not like her action, though history rightly celebrates her action that you know. Woes civil rights move by itself. She needed more than a village. Here's number of people's basically there at the time. So for one person as you say, it's really tough one person is very visible Martin Luther King, of course, is very visible and candle daily secret Jews of many people. That's also true. The recent hashtag me to lead to the wits get seventies. And it certainly true of the Gration little to the current period and people have different valuations. You you've alleyways of these boots. That's what they share in common with people get freed up to say what they had formerly saw was kind of allowed now. So that that plays into another point you made the book about social social interactions. So if somebody is against one of these social norms in a bubble, it's not going to work. But as you mentioned in the case. Of the civil rights movement. There were a lot of people in different areas, but all kind of working toward the common good or with at least the common idea. And once those people all started interacting, then then the change was able to take hold more than if it was just a couple of people here and there. Give you a recent research is very simple and vindicates the point just made which is in in in Saudi Arabia by custom was aren't allowed to join the labor force unless there has been say, it's okay now young Saudi men were surveyed to say that asked you think it's okay. If your wise work in the labor force and overwhelming, they said they said, yes, that's great uncle before that then the rest, what do they think most men like them saying? And they said most men like think, it's a terrible thing. So they privately was working outside the home is phony, but they publicly including their families that it's not funny because that's what they thought to normalize. Here's the kicker. They weren't formed that the research. So it most young Saudi time for wives, we will be the home and that information. Five self produced a very large, spike, four months later, the number of people that is what's who are applying labor force, the dorm collapse was people earned that people that actually actually agree with it. And that little research tells us something about what happens in social movements small ones. How tells us something about when products are to take off when people think, you know, maybe organic food. It's okay to go when they think maybe it's it's just a fine thing to support a political candidates from STAN was gay. When they think there's a businessman kind of loud, but he might make America great again. And so long as I know that a lot of people like that. Take something like that. And they're not that different for me. And the speaking out, then they feel they can do that. Then we can see a really dramatic much in a matter of weeks or months how does this differ, then from when we talked to young kids about peer pressure. It sounds. It. Sounds like these are similar concepts. That if I'm if I'm worried about as an adult what the social norm is. And I'm going to stop myself from speaking out about something because I think, you know, a lot of people aren't aren't thinking the same way m I much different than an adolescent who doesn't want to wear a certain kind of shoes because nobody else in school. Where's those shoes? It's overlaps. So it's a great question. But it's a little bit different. So if you think in your head, you know, this this this practice is wrong. Maybe a practice that's unkind or cruel or something. But the social norm is the practices fine. Then the problem is not to say what you think, and that's a precondition for many of the socialist that we've observed over the last fifty years, it's actually precondition to the American revolution. Where many people in the colonies thought British rules awful. And we have to get rid of it that they needed permission slip from the social support of lots of other people like them to like the Saudi Arabia study. And then we have you know, we had a Eric ago pure peer pressure. It might be that there's some voice in the had people saying, you know, I don't want to drink but under pressure to drink. If that's the. The underlying problem or issue than it is quite similar to one hundred discussing though, it doesn't have the moral feature. Where people aren't saying, you know, they don't think there's a deep injustice being done often peer pressure beings. People have a particularly strong conviction one way or the other is good to stay up till ten PM is a great thing to be out at night till midnight. They might not think it is or isn't. But if the peers are either doing it or not doing that can greatly affect what they are going to choose to. Let's we've talked about a lot of good change coming with mentioned, the civil rights movement, and and of sexual harassment were or the the attention be called the sexual harassment. But there's also. Get some social or political movements that are not good. And yet, even though there's there's people who are sure think these are bad. They still tend to get they still seem to grab hold is it you had mentioned in the book about suppressed beliefs in values and the those getting oxygen. Explain that phenomena because if if something bad is able to come come out, even though there's enough people standing against them. How can we how can we there? Stop those the bad movements of from taking hold or identified that these may be coming in the future. So there's historical example, that hits what you're saying. There's a current one. The historical example is the rise of schism which was partly a kind of provision slip given to people who didn't like very much to talk and act on the basis of what they probably thought and killings of Jews and others and Hitler's rise. This is not by any news. But it's partly just permission slip that the social norm against anti-semitism. It didn't slip flipped upside down. So there became a norm for semitism on the influence. People. Didn't particularly dislike Jews and some of the former Nazis interviewed in the nineteen sixties were incredibly eloquent about this saying we oppose Hitler who who oppose tipplers depends on the circumstances. Who's in the room? What the norm was and even then if people said they opposed didn't oppose it depends on who they were talking to contemporary example. I think is the rise of racial hate speech and hateful action, which we've seen. It's been appears to have been documented by numbers that acts of rations by the way to violence spiked a bit in the last few years and stipulating that the date is correct. It's probably fair to say that recent unleashing. Let's say of white supremacist plinking by people who may not themselves really have much interest in white supremacist, but has been less clamping down the expression white supremacist attitudes that has contributed to very ugly words, and that's pretty bad. But worse than that. To actual violence. Why one we have to take a quick break? But when we come back, I wanna continue on this. And you talk a lot about tipping points as well. So where in in the current movement can we identify where where the tipping point was? And can we identify just in any social movement where the actual tipping point is professor sunshine is my guest. He is the author of how change happens you can find the book everywhere that find books are sold. More with the professor in just a minute on seven twenty WGN Brian Newnan, seven twenty WGN, professor Cass sunshine is my guest. He's the Robert ones that university professor at the Harvard Law School, he was the former he is the former administrator of the White House office of information and regulatory affairs in the Obama administration. He also taught law at the university of Chicago his latest book how change happens is out. Now, the co author his last book nudge, improving decisions about health, wealth and happiness and nudge. Comes into play in this book as well. But let's go back, professor, sunshine. We were talking about we talked about, social and political movements that seem beneficial to the vast majority of people taking hold we also talked about negative, social and political movements taking hold and I wanted to talk about the concept of tipping point. We there there seems to be that point in every movement. But for example, we were talking about the current state of the increase of racial violence, and hate speech. And we're as we as you look back and you track things with Reaser. How do we identify tipping point four something like that? Well, it's easy in the abstract. And know exactly how it happens. It's a little harder to get a clear on his kinda see of events. Exactly what the right moment was. So let's talk about the easier. One is it might be. It might be that if you know take a take the question, whether you're gonna join some environmental movement he might have in your head of concern about thirty or climate change. But you're busy and what point are gonna join. It might be that you're the sort of person who will join that. If you see that it's starting to get some oxygen that you need to see that. I if you were one of the people who join it once it's getting oxygen, and it might be there are a lot of people like you. So it's getting oxygen and that is getting people like you. Then there's another group of people who need to see people like you go, then they will go to and hey, you could do a little risk to make this more clear, but. After that third layer people have gone is might be that's the tipping point. And then you're going to get the Clean Air Act where you're gonna get people in Chicago, you know, Darry determined to press the state legislature to do something about your quality. Illinois. So that's how it goes in terms of particular moments. I'll tell you one that was a really has been point of the recent past listen the line of the actress tweeted that it's it has to and within twenty four hours. Forty five percent of American Facebook users had someone in their friends network who had tweeted each SAP too..

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