So you sit there and you realize like all of these discussions about overpopulation are historically pretty racist in jingo gewiss stick and eugenicist in their origin because nobody <hes>. You know maybe this is touchy for your listeners. But you know nobody ever takes a picture of like a pga tournament with a whole bunch of white people crowded together and say on god. There's too many people on the planet but they sure do zoom in on a big big crowd of black or brown people in some city and say oh my god there's too many people on the planet right and so that's just the nature the origin of of this debate. Even if people were right in their assessment that there's too many people on the planet earth can't support that many people the framing of it was wrong and then because of this kind of paternalistic eugenicist <hes>. racist you know <hes>. origins of the concern the pathway. to resolving it was always paternalistic kind of the population policy approach. Not realizing i think in the fifties the nineteen fifties through the nineteen seventies the power of empowering strategies <hes> and again if we just <hes>. Empower educate integrate into the workforce <hes>. And provide access to family planning technology for all women on the planet this would resolve itself. And that's really the crux of the book. And what's funny. I think is when i give my you know my big lectures my big talks with all my maps and my powerpoint. You can feel the tension in the room until i get get to the fact that it can be resolved or women's empowerment and then you just get like a round of applause and cheering and nobody knew it's not in the in the you know the popular mind and i think that's the biggest problem we've had. Who are people really having those discussions. Still about overpopulation. They are. But i believe it's a generational thing and i actually don't try to impede malice to you. Know a lot of older generations the language you learn when you're young you use it even if it doesn't necessarily fit your do your new view of the world <hes>. You know we all fall back on old habits and old language <hes>. But also you know. I gave some talks at the royal society and the royal geographical society. And you know some of their some of their older patrons would come. And i appreciate them showing up but i get questions from old british you know folks in their seventies and eighties and they say you know but don't we need population policy to keep those people from you know breeding animals. And you're like dude. I don't think he meant to phrase it that way. But in some cases they do and that's part of the problem right because there is a history of that. And if i were someone you know from another part of the world you know where the total fertility rate is is higher and i hear somebody come in and start talking about population and their white from the us or the uk or or europe. I i'm sure i would. Squint my eyes and listen very carefully about the words coming out of their mouth because it is part of the history of this whole thing and you know it's just yell at people say chris don't write this book. Don't go with that message. You're gonna end up being one of those people. And i'm happy to say but i'm not one of those people read the damn up <hes>. And it really does come down to. We have exceeded our planet's longterm ecological carrying capacity every additional person we add to the planet incurs further ecological debt that will take generations to pay down but we can't even pay down until he bring the population down right to our long-term meek. Lots kathy and i'm more than happy to debate is three billion four five. I've i've dared anybody to try to tell me it's seven point seven or higher and nobody's even tried like even the people that you know want to try. They don't even try because they know they can't defend it. And so you know give or take a billion we've got a long road ahead on this issue but